Feminism is alive in the next generation: Video Against Slut Shaming

[RobinFinderson]

Coming up next: kindergartners lecture on STD's and illustrate the proper way to put on a condom using a banana!

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Even though a kindergartner would NOT be harmed by learning how to put a condom on a banana, that information simply wouldn't be useful for a kindergartner. In contrast, there is no information presented in that video that would not be useful in one way or another to many 13-yo girls. Whether we are talking about sexually active 13-yo girls, or whether we are talking about 13-yo discussions about sex, the information in that video is USEFUL.

[marsupial]

Let us carry this reasoning further. If you were to hear a child make an impassioned and well articulated statement about the horrors of war, based on information she had been taught, it would be fair to assume that she was speaking from experience.

The argument doesn't hold water.

That's the thing. I wouldn't make an impassioned statement about the horrors of war because I know little to nothing about the horrors of war. So, yeah, it does hold water.

[RobinFinderson]

Funny, you didn't even mention the phrase until eight or nine posts in. You seemed much more interested in sexual liberation via juvenile promiscuity.

Give me a freaking break. I mentioned it in the title of this thread, specifically associating it with feminism in the title, and it is in the title of the video. I haven't said anything in favor of sexual promiscuity of juveniles. The one thing I would say about the sexual promiscuity of juveniles, which you should not interpret as 'being in favor' of it, is that, given certain conditions (including the legality of the situation), it isn't my or your business. Where it is someone's business, such as it would be to the parent of a sexually active juvenile, the parent would be well-served to listen to this girl's advice, and try to counsel the juvenile in a way that doesn't unintentionally 'slut shame.'

[RobinFinderson]

That's the thing. I wouldn't make an impassioned statement about the horrors of war because I know little to nothing about the horrors of war. So, yeah, it does hold water.

This might be true for YOU, but seriously, people feel passionately about all kinds of things that they have no personal experience with. Empathy is the thing that makes this possible.

[marsupial]

That's the thing. I wouldn't make an impassioned statement about the horrors of war because I know little to nothing about the horrors of war. So, yeah, it does hold water.

Sorry, I misread what you said. I guess you have a point. However, unfortunately there are children who do know the horrors of war. And I know that there are children who are sexually active. My best friend at 13 was having sex. But honestly, I don't think she was emotionally ready to be engaged in that kind of a relationship and certainly could not speak about it with that amount of maturity. I still stand by my contention that the message would be better delivered from an adult and that SU was not off-base to say that the video made it sound like she was speaking from experience.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol. Finderson is not going to concede one inch here.

BY GOD, THIS IS THE GREATEST THING ON YOUTUBE! WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

[RobinFinderson]

When you say “witnessing sex”, are you referring to a single incident, or to having unrestricted access to a steady stream of sexual images or acts? (As you’ve gathered, I’m still very disturbed by the notion that it should be left to a child to determine how much is too much when it comes to sexual or violent images.) If you mean a single incident, then no big deal. But even you seem to acknowledge that steady exposure to sexual images or activity is a bad thing, else why would providing porn to kids be “creepy”?

The reason providing porn to kids is "creepy" is because it is impossible to think of a reason why an adult would do that, except as a sexual act involving a minor, and that is seriously creepy. I also think that most contemporary porn contains one or more of the following: misogyny, unsafe practices, racism, and stupidity. Viewing all of those things, imo, is harmful to children.

I lack the time or skill to respond to this as effectively as your question deserves. And part of my inadequacy is due to my relying on a belief system that you have rejected. I believe there is a divine element to sexuality. On a continuum of how one regards one’s body and sexuality, I regard them more as a temple of God than as an amusement park. But let’s take God off the table.

These are fine traditional dogmatic beliefs that have served people well for a long time. I really don't have a problem with them, except that I don't personally believe them.

I also believe there is ample societal and scientific support for restricting a child’s access to sexual information, and that premature, continuous exposure to sex is psychologically harmful. I vaguely recall an APA study that determined that the early sexualization of women is very damaging (sorry I can’t pull it up right now). And no, I don’t think if Junior stumbles in on his parents having a little afternoon delight he will be scarred forever (although it would literally and figuratively open the door for some worthy, and carefully managed, discussion). But I do think that allowing Junior to be a regular spectator (or worse) for the most intimate of human activities would be a huge mistake.

Sexuality is complex. If I had to venture a wild guess, I would speculate that MOST sexually active adults have had one or more sexual experiences that they regret. The likelihood of having regrettable sex increases with lack of maturity, and maturity tends to decrease with youth. So people are going to have regrettable sex, and youth are going to have more regrettable sex than other groups. Does exposure to sexual and violent media increase the likelihood of youth to participate in sexual and violent activities? It is an interesting question with many confounding variables -- what kind of media? Are parents watching the media at the same time? Are parents discussing the material with the child? How much content are the children seeing?

It just isn't a simple question, and I doubt that there are simple answers. SU's answer was to stay uninvolved, and let his kids fumble their way through their teenage years without much of his input. Our approach as parents has been different. We let LR choose the content he wants to consume, but we try to be aware of it, and we talk about it with him. Regarding 'the talk,' he got it when he was about nine, where we basically told him what sex is. As he started having more questions, primarily raised from conversations he had with other kids at school, we started to give him more information, always trying emphasize the importance of safety and respect for others.

It’s easier to grasp the mechanics of sex, and the physical effects of sexual stimulation, than to develop and appreciate the emotional maturity necessary for a truly loving, committed relationship. I wouldn’t want to give free rein to the former until that maturity is there, and that’s something that only time and wise instruction can impart.

I don't disagree with any of this.

I’m sure you’re not a big Will and Ariel Durant fan, but I’ve always appreciated one of their observations from The Lessons of History:

No one, however brilliant or well-informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or institutions of his society, for these are the wisdom of generations after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history. A youth boiling with hormones will wonder why he should not give full freedom to his sexual desires; and if he is unchecked by custom, morals, or laws, he may ruin his life before he matures sufficiently to understand that sex is a river of fire that must be banked and cooled by a hundred restraints if it is not to consume in chaos both the individual and the group.

I genuinely believe that, and I accept that you don’t.

I generally believe that there is wisdom in long-held social customs and traditions. I also think that there are some very good reasons why such customs exist, and that adults should talk about these reasons, because young people are actually very good at reasoning... in some ways their brains are better wired for learning and reasoning than ours are as adults. So we should talk about the reasons why things are right and wrong, and not default to dogmatic explanations. What the girl in this video has demonstrated is that a child can grasp some really excellent and relevant reasons for why something like 'slut shaming' is wrong. She is in a privileged position.

Be thankful this is a very abbreviated version of my thoughts on the matter. Prolixity is a natural consequence of billing by the hour.

It is all good. Thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I enjoyed reading and responding to them.

[RobinFinderson]

lol. Finderson is not going to concede one inch here.

BY GOD, THIS IS THE GREATEST THING ON YOUTUBE! WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

It is a fine video that ranks among the best presentations I have ever seen on that particular subject, and I think it is true and useful information for people at any age where they are likely to be having sex, talking about sex, and/or projecting meaning on to sexuality ('slut'). Thirteen-year-olds definitely fit all of those criteria.

[Babs]

Give me a freaking break. I mentioned it in the title of this thread, specifically associating it with feminism in the title, and it is in the title of the video. I haven't said anything in favor of sexual promiscuity of juveniles. The one thing I would say about the sexual promiscuity of juveniles, which you should not interpret as 'being in favor' of it, is that, given certain conditions (including the legality of the situation), it isn't my or your business. Where it is someone's business, such as it would be to the parent of a sexually active juvenile, the parent would be well-served to listen to this girl's advice, and try to counsel the juvenile in a way that doesn't unintentionally 'slut shame.'

[RobinFinderson]

I accept your apology.

[Pelado]

It is a fine video that ranks among the best presentations I have ever seen on that particular subject, and I think it is true and useful information for people at any age where they are likely to be having sex, talking about sex, and/or projecting meaning on to sexuality ('slut'). Thirteen-year-olds definitely fit all of those criteria.

How many other slut-shaming presentations have you seen?

[marsupial]

How many other slut-shaming presentations have you seen?

By asking that question, you are shaming him for watching slut shaming presentations. How many slut shaming presentations he watches is his business and his business only.

[TripletDaddy]

That's the thing. I wouldn't make an impassioned statement about the horrors of war because I know little to nothing about the horrors of war. So, yeah, it does hold water.

I bet that girl could do a video about the whores of war....prostitution near naval and army bases, comfort women of Saigon, etc.

[Babs]

I bet that girl could do a video about the whores of war....prostitution near naval and army bases, comfort women of Saigon, etc.

How can you use such offensive language in such a casual manner?!

[Pelado]

By asking that question, you are shaming him for watching slut shaming presentations. How many slut shaming presentations he watches is his business and his business only.

I agree that he is free to watch as many slut-shaming presentations as he can stand, but disagree that my innocent inquiry leads to shaming him.