School kills creativity

[tooblue]

One of the problems with the video (and some of the ensuing discussion) is the straw man portrayed as the current educational "system", especially as it relates to engineering education. It is portrayed as rigid, formal, and resistant to change, where the students are systematically abused by an old framework put in place decades, if not centuries ago. That simply does not square with reality. For many years now there has been a strong push in engineering to get away from the traditional lecture mode to a mixed teaching strategy that recognizes that students have a variety of learning styles. There is a much stronger emphasis on hands-on instruction involving groups, teamwork, communication, and leadership skills. There is also a strong emphasis on problem-based learning with open-ended design problems where creativity and efficiency are rewarded. These changes are driven by research on teaching and learning and by pressure from industry.

One of the obstacles to change in engineering education has been the accreditation process. Traditionally it has followed a prescriptive mode where every program was forced to offer the same set of core courses with same total level of credits in each area. Over the past 15-20 years this has changed dramatically. There are still a few strict minima in place, but it is now more outcomes-based and everyone is forced to put in a feedback loop where success and competency are gauged by multiple, independent measures including national exam scores, alumni surveys, and employee surveys.

Another problem with the student-as-victim caricature is that students have a very powerful role in the modern education process. Institutions that care about teaching employ student and course evaluations for every section that is taught and the results are taken very seriously. Not only do poor teachers not make tenure, but raises for all faculty can be closely tied to teaching performance. Poor teachers are punished and gifted teachers are rewarded. One simply cannot become rated as a gifted teacher by the students without engaging them in a highly effective manner that caters to multiple learning styles.

Good post. Though, as an educator at the post secondary level, I must tell you students have little to no power when it comes to what they are taught. They are at the complete mercy of system. Good teachers mitigate it to a certain degree, but they most definitely are victimized.

For the record, I imagine at least two of my sons will end up studying engineering ... one, currently in high school, has verbally stated his goal is to study math and physics in University.

So far, none of my sons have expressed any interest in studying law ... and I thank the Lord daily for that.

[TheAzzuri]

Let's talk facts. One of the points I take from the video is that the drug is generally not understood to be a "stimulant" but rather it is viewed as a means of "controlling" student behavior. Do you see the disconnect?

It's all good and well to say this drug will help a child focus, but it's naive to believe that the parent or educator is not confusing "focus" with "control" or "sedation."Imagine for a moment that a curriculum could be created that would maximize the potential of the ADHD brain. To, effectively, focus it without the aid of drugs, but in ways that take advantage of the inherent strengths of such a brain. Consider what could be learned?

You do also realize that our collective brains are effectively being rewired by technology ... specifically the Internet?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...rate-more.html

I'm confused. These are facts?

I take issue with the "fact" that AD(H)D is globally overdiagnosed.

[tooblue]

I'm confused. These are facts?

I take issue with the "fact" that AD(H)D is globally overdiagnosed.

They are as much a fact as any thing else posted here by our resident DR's ... were you aware that "stimulants" are being prescribed to kids who are Hyperactive? Hence, "H" in ADHD:

http://www.adhd.org.nz/neuro1.html

In my personal experience, there are very few parents or educators who know the children are receiving a stimulant ... after all, they just want the kid to settle down and listen. Talk about a disconnect

The video talks about ADHD. I'm sure you are right though. Ken Robinson, an internationally recognized expert on education is just making this all up and then gleefully talking about it for an RSA video or at TED conferences:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinso...reativity.html

Good thing the collective CUF brain trust is here to set us straight on this matter!

[Jeff Lebowski]

They are as much a fact as any thing else posted here by our resident DR's ... were you aware that "stimulants" are being prescribed to kids who are Hyperactive? Hence, "H" in ADHD:

http://www.adhd.org.nz/neuro1.html

In my personal experience, there are very few parents or educators who know the child is receiving a stimulant ... after all, they just want the kid to settle down and listen. Talk about a disconnect

The video talks about ADHD. I'm sure you are right though. Ken Robinson, an internationally recognized expert on education is just making this all up and then gleefully talking about it for an RSA video or at TED conference:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinso...reativity.html

Good thing the collective CUF brain trust is here to set us straight on this matter!

Relax. I don't recall anyone saying that he made everything up.

I am surprised you use a link to another talk by the same guy as support for your case. Also, you keep referring to the fact that he an internationally recognized expert. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of fudging facts or data to fit his hypothesis. Happens all the time.

[tooblue]

Relax. I don't recall anyone saying that he made everything up.

I am surprised you use a link to another talk by the same guy as support for your case. Also, you keep referring to the fact that he an internationally recognized expert. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of fudging facts or data to fit his hypothesis. Happens all the time.

You're right, I was too flip in my last post. I'm not linking to the other video to support my case, I'm merely highlighting the fact that, considering the exposure he has received over the past several years, it's hard to imagine that his facts haven't, in some measure, been vetted or, as was stated by another poster that he hasn't done any research. That's preposterous.

Ken Robinson is making some enemies and perhaps more careful examination of his ideas is to come. Regardless, I find much of what he has to say compelling.

[TheAzzuri]

They are as much a fact as any thing else posted here by our resident DR's

No, they're not facts in any sense.

were you aware that "stimulants" are being prescribed to kids who are Hyperactive? Hence, "H" in ADHD:

Yes, I'm aware that most prescribed medications are stimulants. I'm also aware that they an effective tool for many.

The video talks about ADHD. I'm sure you are right though. Ken Robinson, an internationally recognized expert on education is just making this all up and then gleefully talking about it for an RSA video or at TED conferences:

How does his educational expertise qualifiy him to critique medical diagnoses?

[RobinFinderson]

No, they're not facts in any sense.



Yes, I'm aware that most prescribed medications are stimulants. I'm also aware that they an effective tool for many.



How does his educational expertise qualifiy him to critique medical diagnoses?

Azz, I don't know much about this from the medical side, but I'm pretty deeply immersed in the issue on the education side. Teachers are encouraging parents to get their children tested for attention disorders all of the time. Many of these parents have no insurance for their kids, but still walk out of doctor's office with a scrip. Do you really think that every child who walks into a doctor's office without insurance, carrying only a teacher's note indicating attention problems in the classroom, is going to get thoroughly tested for an attention deficit disorder? And I have no doubt that these scrips 'help' students to focus. I suppose that is also why they are given to fighter pilots and marines who don't have attention problems, but who do face life-threatening situations where the ability to focus could make all the difference. These performance enhancing drugs, and they are commonly shared among students. When I was teaching college courses, students would often talk about the Adderall abuse they witnessed among their peers.

Anyhow, from my perspective, it seems like the environment is well primed for over-diagnosis of attention disorders. We have teachers who want students to have the benefit of the drugs. We have students who want the benefit of the drugs, whether they need them or not. We have parents who are naturally worried about their children, who believe the teachers, and who want to believe that a miracle pill will solve their children's trouble in school. And we have doctors who are under pressure from all of these people to deliver results in a culture where it doesn't take much assessment to justify an experiment with Adderall, just to see if it helps.

I would like to see some evidence supporting the idea that attention disorders are NOT over-diagnosed.

[ERCougar]

In my personal experience, there are very few parents or educators who know the children are receiving a stimulant ... after all, they just want the kid to settle down and listen. Talk about a disconnect

In my personal experience--which actually involves, you know...kids who are taking these meds and their parents--I would tell you that the great majority of parents whose kids have ADHD know that these are stimulants.

But really, I'm super interested in what a university art professor has to say about medical diagnoses and their treatments, so carry on.

[tooblue]

In my personal experience--which actually involves, you know...kids who are taking these meds and their parents--I would tell you that the great majority of parents whose kids have ADHD know that these are stimulants.

But really, I'm super interested in what a university art professor has to say about medical diagnoses and their treatments, so carry on.

Let me address your red herring ...

I'm not talking about diagnosis or treatment and neither is the narrator in the video. Neither of us are qualified. But, let Let me tell you what a college Art prof knows about this subject discussed in the video in context to education. Of the 90 students enrolled in one particular Fine Arts course I teach this semester, I received 44 special "accommodation" forms from the Centre for students with disabilities. Not a single student — nor is it indicated on the form — informed me they are taking a "stimulant." However, the form in question does indicate that the student may be medicated to help "calm" him/her or to help "control" anxieties they might suffer in relation to course work. What's more, each spring, all teachers attend required training sessions on how to work with students who may be seeking accommodation.

After 12 years of teaching and continual training I can say that I am reasonably well informed on the subject.

[CardiacCoug]

Let's talk facts. One of the points I take from the video is that the drug is generally not understood to be a "stimulant" but rather it is viewed as a means of "controlling" student behavior. Do you see the disconnect?

It's all good and well to say this drug will help a child focus, but it's naive to believe that the parent or educator is not confusing "focus" with "control" or "sedation."

Imagine for a moment that a curriculum could be created that would maximize the potential of the ADHD brain. To, effectively, focus it without the aid of drugs, but in ways that take advantage of the inherent strengths of such a brain. Consider what could be learned?

I'm not sure exactly what the advantages of the "ADHD brain" would be. Any ideas?

Kids with ADHD who are trying to concentrate and learn feel like the rest of us would feel if we were trying to study something in the middle of a nightclub after being awake for 24+ hours. The stimulants help them focus and block out the distractions. ADHD is a disability, not a superpower.

[wuapinmon]

ADHD is a disability, not a superpower.

You probably vaccinate your children. Fight Big Pharma, don't vaccinate.

[tooblue]

I'm not sure exactly what the advantages of the "ADHD brain" would be. Any ideas?

Kids with ADHD who are trying to concentrate and learn feel like the rest of us would feel if we were trying to study something in the middle of a nightclub after being awake for 24+ hours. The stimulants help them focus and block out the distractions. ADHD is a disability, not a superpower.

No, it is not a super power. However, before I offer a more detailed response may I ask: Are you open to the possibility that it is NOT a disadvantage?

[CardiacCoug]

No, it is not a super power. However, before I offer a more detailed response may I ask: Are you open to the possibility that it is NOT a disadvantage?

Sure, I could be convinced. Let's hear it.

[RobinFinderson]

I'm not sure exactly what the advantages of the "ADHD brain" would be. Any ideas?

Kids with ADHD who are trying to concentrate and learn feel like the rest of us would feel if we were trying to study something in the middle of a nightclub after being awake for 24+ hours. The stimulants help them focus and block out the distractions. ADHD is a disability, not a superpower.

Really? Like studying in a nightclub without any sleep? How could anyone possibly know that? I mean, maybe it is true for some, but aren't there degrees of the disorders?

The stims would be performance enhancers for most people, which is probably why they are widely shared. There is LOT of demand for the drugs. Given that the test for attention disorders is typically a checklist, and given that the checks on the checklist are mostly based on the patient's response to questions, it seems like a situation where the drugs are going to flow to the people who want them, regardless the magnitude of their disability (if any at all).

It kind of reminds me of the whole medical marijuana thing here in CA. The doctors who write recommendations for patients base their diagnosis on what the patient says. There are no elaborate tests or attempts to verify that the patient is accurately describing his situation. There are followup visits, to establish that the patient continues to need medical MJ, but these are just pro forma. Is it any surprise then that where there is a culture of marijuana use, there just happens to be an epidemic of health issues that can be treated by marijuana? There is a sociocultural dimension to health care. The concentration of attention disorders in different parts of the country seems to speak to how local culture deals with health issues.

[tooblue]

Sure, I could be convinced. Let's hear it.

First, I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. As a diagnosed dyslexic, educator and artist I am very interested in this subject. I've enjoyed discussing it here and simply hope to help others become more aware that such conditions are not a disadvantage but, rather, it is possible they could be leveraged as an advantage. I also am — and always have been — frustrated with the education system.

Over the past several years I've read a lot about my own condition and in so doing have discovered that Dyslexic brains and ADHD brains are very similar. Recently, I have read the newly published: The Dyslexic Advantage: Unlocking the Hidden Potential of the Dyslexic Brain. I posted about it here in this forum a few weeks ago but, didn't get any responses. It's a little evangelical but, presents some compelling arguments. Below are links to articles and reviews for the book:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...exic-advantage

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...xic-advantage/

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594630798?ie=UTF8&tag=neurolearni04-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeAS IN=1594630798"]Amazon.com: The Dyslexic Advantage: Unlocking the Hidden Potential of the Dyslexic Brain (9781594630798): Brock L. Eide, Fernette F. Eide: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51i5kNNggpL.@@AMEPARAM@@51i5kNNggpL[/ame]

and another interesting article on the subject:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/jo...ness-week-blog

In regards to the supposed disadvantages of the ADHD brain I might recommend you start with the a magazine called ADDitude:

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/754.html

You might say that these nowhere kids turned their lives around. They are, in order, Alan Meckler, chairman and CEO of Jupitermedia; Paul Orfalea, founder of the copying empire, Kinko's; Diane Swonk, a world-renowned economist; Charles Schwab, a pioneer in the discount brokerage business; and David Neeleman, founder and CEO of JetBlue Airways.

Besides having difficulty in school, these executives share another thing in common: They all suffer from ADHD or learning disabilities. Neeleman has ADHD; Swonk, Meckler, and Schwab have dyslexia; and Orfalea has both. Each managed to turn his or her liabilities into assets on their respective career paths.

As far as remodeling the education system to better suit all types of brains, and learning styles, I have some ideas but, precious little time available to spell them out here. I will keep posting about the subject of creativity and education however ... especially as I continue to learn more.