School kills creativity

[tooblue]

In case you're interested in improving yourself, as you seem so keen on encouraging others to do, this is the type of post that causes so many of us to dislike you. The extreme defensiveness, personal attacks, and uncharitable interpretation (to put it mildly) of others' comments are quite annoying. It's as if you only feel like posting on CUF when you've just come home from a really bad day.

I've deliberately avoided responding to the content of your post, and you may feel free to respond to this however you'd like; I promise not to respond.

It's clear it's not easy for you to admit your criticism was wrong headed. I'm sorry that by pointing it out, you were offended.

[tooblue]

Why would anybody think that the government or anybody else could "guarantee" employment to a college grad?

That attitude of entitlement with the Occupy Wall Street crowd just kills me.

I agree, it kills me too ... but, it can be argued that's what we've been told all through out grade school and high school. It's a little late now to tell all those "students" to grow up and get real.

Look, the education system obviously worked well for you. I think that's great. High school and my first couple years of post secondary education was a complete waste of my time. Fortunately, I was brought up in a family that taught me how to persevere and work hard. Coupled with the influence of the Mormon culture which taught me to be true to myself, I have enjoyed relative success in life.

What I would like to see is an evolved education system that can benefit both you and I or, the people we might represent, respectively, equally. I don't think it's too much to ask. it's one of the reasons I chose to go into teaching specifically at the college level.

[tooblue]

My point was that just because medication did not work for DD's cousin, doesn't mean that treating ADD is a waste. You cannot medicate motivation into a person.

In regards to this discussion, I think that ADD is overdiagnosed. When properly diagnosed, treatment is quite effective.

Neither the speaker in the video, nor I, are suggesting that treating ADD is a waste. On the contrary. It's clear to me that it's a real issue and can be effectively treated. However, everyone who struggles in school is not suffering from ADHD. Our societie's propensity to throw drugs at a problem is distressing. Why is it unreasonable to expect educational institutions and society to adjust, adapt and evolve to help address the problem even more effectively?

By the way how was the hunt this year?

[CardiacCoug]

I agree, it kills me too ... but, it can be argued that's what we've been told all through out grade school and high school. It's a little late now to tell all those "students" to grow up and get real.

Look, the education system obviously worked well for you. I think that's great. High school and my first couple years of post secondary education was a complete waste of my time. Fortunately, I was brought up in a family that taught me how to persevere and work hard. Coupled with the influence of the Mormon culture which taught me to be true to myself, I have enjoyed relative success in life.

What I would like to see is an evolved education system that can benefit both you and I or, the people we might represent, respectively, equally. I don't think it's too much to ask. it's one of the reasons I chose to go into teaching specifically at the college level.

Sure, I get what you're saying. The educational system is messed up. College isn't for everybody and schools are definitely taking advantage of students when they ask them to go deeply into debt for almost worthless degrees.

[tooblue]

Please don't confuse the discussion with facts.

Let's talk facts. One of the points I take from the video is that the drug is generally not understood to be a "stimulant" but rather it is viewed as a means of "controlling" student behavior. Do you see the disconnect?

It's all good and well to say this drug will help a child focus, but it's naive to believe that the parent or educator is not confusing "focus" with "control" or "sedation."

Imagine for a moment that a curriculum could be created that would maximize the potential of the ADHD brain. To, effectively, focus it without the aid of drugs, but in ways that take advantage of the inherent strengths of such a brain. Consider what could be learned?

You do also realize that our collective brains are effectively being rewired by technology ... specifically the Internet?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1284564/How-internet-rewiring-brains-The-web-treasure-house-knowledge--making-impossible-concentrate-more.html

[tooblue]

That was fun. These RSA videos all seem to follow a similar pattern. A rally against the staus quo fueled with some truths, some half truths, and a hefty load of BS, all presented in a highly entertaining package.

Oh, brother.

[tooblue]

Let's talk facts. One of the points I take from the video is that the drug is generally not understood to be a "stimulant" but rather it is viewed as a means of "controlling" student behavior. Do you see the disconnect?

It's all good and well to say this drug will help a child focus, but it's naive to believe that the parent or educator is not confusing "focus" with "control" or "sedation."

Imagine for a moment that a curriculum could be created that would maximize the potential of the ADHD brain. To, effectively, focus it without the aid of drugs, but in ways that take advantage of the inherent strengths of such a brain. Consider what could be learned?

You do also realize that our collective brains are effectively being rewired by technology ... specifically the Internet?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...rate-more.html

Author Nicholas Carr: The Web Shatters Focus, Rewires Brains

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/05/ff_nicholas_carr/all/1

[wuapinmon]

School always inspired me to go and try and apply the new things I was learning about to my life, my environment, and my toys.

It made me more creative because I constantly had new tools with which to create.

It's fine to not enjoy doing equations, I'd find it tedious and boring. But, if I wanted to be an engineer, I'd understand the necessity, and I would do it so I could do what I really loved, and be able to do it well because of the knowledge I had gained along the way. And, that doesn't mean that I would expect to recall it all, but that I would have trained my brain how to think.

The Liberal Arts model does this very well, and when done right, it does not kill creativity.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Oh, brother.

It's clear it's not easy for you to admit your video was wrong headed. I'm sorry that by pointing it out, you were offended.

[tooblue]

It's clear it's not easy for you to admit your video was wrong headed. I'm sorry that by pointing it out, you were offended.

I'm not offended. I am mocking you and your lack of comprehension and inane criticism. lol

[RobinFinderson]

It's clear it's not easy for you to admit your video was wrong headed. I'm sorry that by pointing it out, you were offended.

I don't think that he is saying that there is no such thing as ADHD. He seems to be saying that the epidemic is overblown, and that the boring content of schools' has contributed to its over-diagnosis. Not every kid who gets put on drugs for one of these attention problems gets a brain scan to verify a clinical case. I agree that over-diagnosis happens, and that school culture contributes to it. You get a bunch of teachers who are unable to manage the classroom, and they start pushing parents to have their fidgety kids get tested for an attention disorder, and the parents take their kids to their HMO doctor who performs some basic attention/focus tests, and the results are borderline (which they probably are for many of us), and so the doctor says, "Lets try this drug and see if it helps." It happens all the time.

[SCcoug]

It may be outmoded and there may be a better way. But if we're still talking about engineering, there are plenty of middle and upper class college students who wash out of engineering majors. So I don't think the claim that the weeding process is designed to protect the wealthy is valid.

If you consider knowledge wealth, then yes it is valid. Education could be considered a racket, both knowledge wise and monetarily.

Regardless, the question of why has yet to be answered ... it's as if we don't even want to discuss it?

Wait so you think the weeding process is designed to protect the knowledgeable? That doesn't make any sense.

The weeding process is really nothing more than having to take difficult classes starting with the prerequisites. I can understand it. If you are a freshman struggling in calculus, physics and computer science classes and see more of the same but harder; dropping out looks like a pretty good option. I'm sure there is room for improvement but the underlying difficulty of the major(s) won't change.

[thesaint258]

I wonder how many kids who are diagnosed with ADHD are really just kinesthetic learners. Kinesthetic learners are often fidgety, can't sit still for long periods of time, and have difficulty concentrating for long periods of time if they're not active. They learn through doing, not through reading or listening. I'm an extreme kinesthetic learner, and I can see how I could have easily been diagnosed as having ADHD.

I like to stand and move around when I can. Unfortunately, my work doesn't allow me to do that often. I also can't concentrate on a task for long periods of time unless I occupy my brain with something else. When I'm at work, I almost always listen to music or have Netflix going in the background on my computer because it seems to keep the rest of my brain occupied and doing something while I focus on whatever research or pleading I'm working on.

I googled kinesthetic learners, and came up with this link that lists a lot of signs of a kinesthetic learner: http://studyingstyle.com/tactile-kin...-learners.html A lot of these apply to me, and I bet they apply to a lot of kids who are considered hyperactive.

[wuapinmon]

I wonder how many kids who are diagnosed with ADHD are really just kinesthetic learners. Kinesthetic learners are often fidgety, can't sit still for long periods of time, and have difficulty concentrating for long periods of time if they're not active. They learn through doing, not through reading or listening. I'm an extreme kinesthetic learner, and I can see how I could have easily been diagnosed as having ADHD.

I like to stand and move around when I can. Unfortunately, my work doesn't allow me to do that often. I also can't concentrate on a task for long periods of time unless I occupy my brain with something else. When I'm at work, I almost always listen to music or have Netflix going in the background on my computer because it seems to keep the rest of my brain occupied and doing something while I focus on whatever research or pleading I'm working on.

I googled kinesthetic learners, and came up with this link that lists a lot of signs of a kinesthetic learner: http://studyingstyle.com/tactile-kin...-learners.html A lot of these apply to me, and I bet they apply to a lot of kids who are considered hyperactive.

I too

Enjoy feeling, discovery and action
Remember by using tools, building models and manipulating things
Learn through emotions, touch, movement and space
Enjoy demonstrations of concept demonstrations
Master skills through imitation and practice.
Benefit from hands-on teaching techniques
Find it difficult to sit still for long periods of time.
Remember who did what in the past, rather than what they said or how they looked.
Prefer to stand, walk about or use large motor muscles when learning.
Learn well from field trips and excursions.
Tend to collect things
Do not have good handwriting
Are weaker at spelling.
Talk fast using hands to communicate
Benefit from role-playing and simulations
Enjoy having background music while studying or working.
Good at sports (only basketball and air hockey)
Take frequent breaks when studying
Think in terms of physical action
May play a musical instrument.
Enjoy exploring the environment
Participates in martial arts, dance.
Can grasp concepts when abstract theories are combined with practical experience
Enjoy science experiments, construction games, arts ad crafts
Could be considered hyperactive
More relaxed and open to learning in a beanbag than a hard chair.
Good internal compass for finding their way around.
Get restless during long lectures
Comfortable touching others as a gesture of friendship
Prefer participating actively rather than watching video or reading from a book (I like all of these things)
Learn more effectively when free to move
Studies effectively laying on floor or bed, fidgeting, tapping fingers or touching objects

I don't know if that means I am one, but I certainly have most of the traits.

[Jeff Lebowski]

One of the problems with the video (and some of the ensuing discussion) is the straw man portrayed as the current educational "system", especially as it relates to engineering education. It is portrayed as rigid, formal, and resistant to change, where the students are systematically abused by an old framework put in place decades, if not centuries ago. That simply does not square with reality. For many years now there has been a strong push in engineering to get away from the traditional lecture mode to a mixed teaching strategy that recognizes that students have a variety of learning styles. There is a much stronger emphasis on hands-on instruction involving groups, teamwork, communication, and leadership skills. There is also a strong emphasis on problem-based learning with open-ended design problems where creativity and efficiency are rewarded. These changes are driven by research on teaching and learning and by pressure from industry.

One of the obstacles to change in engineering education has been the accreditation process. Traditionally it has followed a prescriptive mode where every program was forced to offer the same set of core courses with same total level of credits in each area. Over the past 15-20 years this has changed dramatically. There are still a few strict minima in place, but it is now more outcomes-based and everyone is forced to put in a feedback loop where success and competency are gauged by multiple, independent measures including national exam scores, alumni surveys, and employee surveys.

Another problem with the student-as-victim caricature is that students have a very powerful role in the modern education process. Institutions that care about teaching employ student and course evaluations for every section that is taught and the results are taken very seriously. Not only do poor teachers not make tenure, but raises for all faculty can be closely tied to teaching performance. Poor teachers are punished and gifted teachers are rewarded. One simply cannot become rated as a gifted teacher by the students without engaging them in a highly effective manner that caters to multiple learning styles.