Occupy Wall Street

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Agreed about the banks. To your last paragraph, no. This is the myth on which much of the conservative attitude is based, and it's disgusting. You're looking at the world through the lens of your own experience. Most people don't have the opportunities you do, and our system makes sure that doesn't change generation to generation.

Your ignorant dig at the humanities only reinforces my point. Our society values a small number of jobs, and everything else is deemed almost worthless, whether it's Malaysian anthropology or factory work.

I know plenty of people that didn't have the same opportunities I had and they've achieved more than me. I had a friend whose mother died when he was 5 and his father was in prison when he was in junior high and high school. He lived with different friends for four years until he graduated from high school. All he did was wake up every morning at 5AM in college, work his ass off, get into the Mayo Clinic and then get a residency at Duke. I can guaran-ass-tee you that he has had far less opportunity than these assholes taking dumps on cop cars.

My dig at the humanities isn't ignorant at all. I'm just speaking to the economic reality of majoring in French Literature. If one thinks they can have the same career majoring in something like that as someone who majors in, say, some kind of engineering degree, then that's their own fault. I would have loved to have majored in 1980s Late Night Cable Cinema but I can't also reasonably assume that the careers in this field are abundant. They're not valued for a reason.

[woot]

I know plenty of people that didn't have the same opportunities I had and they've achieved more than me. I had a friend whose mother died when he was 5 and his father was in prison when he was in junior high and high school. He lived with different friends for four years until he graduated from high school. All he did was wake up every morning at 5AM in college, work his ass off, get into the Mayo Clinic and then get a residency at Duke. I can guaran-ass-tee you that he has had far less opportunity than these assholes taking dumps on cop cars.

My dig at the humanities isn't ignorant at all. I'm just speaking to the economic reality of majoring in French Literature. If one thinks they can have the same career majoring in something like that as someone who majors in, say, some kind of engineering degree, then that's their own fault. I would have loved to have majored in 1980s Late Night Cable Cinema but I can't also reasonably assume that the careers in this field are abundant. They're not valued for a reason.

Ah I see. So a guy who got into the Mayo Clinic succeeded only because of his hard work. How can you not see how ridiculous that argument is?

[Moliere]

Yet another straw man. Do try to keep up.

Cars and car insurance was part of his living wage calculation.

I'm just trying to point out how ridiculous it is for a governmental body to try and determine how much money someone should make. Why don't we just pay people a wage commiserate with their services provided and let them spend it on stuff they think they need to live. Then we can tax them to provide social services (food stamps, Medicaid, etc.) for those that fall on hard times. Capitalism isnt broken, the American form of government is and some in the OWS understand that.

[TripletDaddy]

Ah I see. So a guy who got into the Mayo Clinic succeeded only because of his hard work. How can you not see how ridiculous that argument is?

It seems to be the opposite side of the same coin. Your assertion appears to be that the poor (I think, maybe your are talking about some other demo) have no say in their futures. Their birthright is to be forever downtrodden, unable to work or earn a living wage. Help me understand the difference between your absolute and the one promulgated by "conservatives" advocating hard work as a panacea.

[Katy Lied]

Of course I can. That has nothing to do with the argument. Again, conservatives desperately want to make this discussion about hard work. It's not about hard work. It's about a system set up to provide infinitely for those with opportunity, and to provide nothing to those without. Hard work is an absolute baseline. The problem is how the system rewards that work. Bankers who are little more than parasites are rewarded with more money than they'll ever spend, while those who perform essential services are often barely getting by. That's not how it is in other modern countries, and it doesn't have to be that way here.

Opportunity + Hard Work = Wealth

The problem is, is the absence of wealth lack of opportunity or hard work or both?

You want to help those who lack opportunity, but not those who lack hard work.

How can you tell?

[woot]

It seems to be the opposite side of the same coin. Your assertion appears to be that the poor (I think, maybe your are talking about some other demo) have no say in their futures. Their birthright is to be forever downtrodden, unable to work or earn a living wage. Help me understand the difference between your absolute and the one promulgated by "conservatives" advocating hard work as a panacea.

They're both generalizations, but statistically speaking, one's socioeconomic status is basically decided at birth. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but even in those cases hard work combines with some rare opportunity, and in many cases hard work itself evinces some experience or exposure to something that motivated someone who otherwise wouldn't have been. Nobody just decides appropos of nothing to work hard. Each life is shaped by experience. For many people, no amount of hard work will allow someone to rise much above the station they were born into.

[snowcat]

Opportunity + Hard Work = Wealth

The problem is, is the absence of wealth lack of opportunity or hard work or both?

You want to help those who lack opportunity, but not those who lack hard work.

How can you tell?

Agreed.

[TripletDaddy]

They're both generalizations, but statistically speaking, one's socioeconomic status is basically decided at birth. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but even in those cases hard work combines with some rare opportunity, and in many cases hard work itself evinces some experience or exposure to something that motivated someone who otherwise wouldn't have been. Nobody just decides appropos of nothing to work hard. Each life is shaped by experience. For many people, no amount of hard work will allow someone to rise much above the station they were born into.

And you or others feel that this is corporate America's responsibility? I'm trying to understand the connection between people that have well-paying jobs and the overarching message you are trying to convey, or better said...the message OWS is trying to convey. I realize you have not claimed association with the OWS movement.

[woot]

Opportunity + Hard Work = Wealth

The problem is, is the absence of wealth lack of opportunity or hard work or both?

You want to help those who lack opportunity, but not those who lack hard work.

How can you tell?

You can tell by looking at it statistically. People tend to end up right where their parents ended up. If you want to say it's because only those with successful parents work hard, then good luck. Even then, I would think that should tell you something about hard work as an instilled value, rather than a blank slate behavioral characteristic.

[woot]

And you or others feel that this is corporate America's responsibility? I'm trying to understand the connection between people that have well-paying jobs and the overarching message you are trying to convey, or better said...the message OWS is trying to convey. I realize you have not claimed association with the OWS movement.

I say it's the government's responsibility. Corporations just strive to make money, and they generally aren't governed by any moral compass, so it shouldn't surprise anyone when they use and abuse the system however they can. They should be strictly regulated and those who take advantage of the extremely pro-business framework in America should be taxed in order to help maintain that framework, which is now falling apart. Meanwhile, the government should quit wasting money policing other countries, etc. so that this money can be used to create opportunities for the less-fortunate.

The corporations are the problem, but only because the government let them be the problem.

But I'm about done with this. I don't know much about economics, and try to ignore politics. I was mostly just responding to the tone of the conversation. The Mormon attitude toward the poor is diametrically opposed to that of the New Testament Jesus, and I find it disgusting.

[Jeff Lebowski]

But I'm about done with this. I don't know much about economics, and try to ignore politics. I was mostly just responding to the tone of the conversation. The Mormon attitude toward the poor is diametrically opposed to that of the New Testament Jesus, and I find it disgusting.

Once again, woot proves that self-righteousness is not exclusive to religious folks.

[TripletDaddy]

I say it's the government's responsibility. Corporations just strive to make money, and they generally aren't governed by any moral compass, so it shouldn't surprise anyone when they use and abuse the system however they can. They should be strictly regulated and those who take advantage of the extremely pro-business framework in America should be taxed in order to help maintain that framework, which is now falling apart. Meanwhile, the government should quit wasting money policing other countries, etc. so that this money can be used to create opportunities for the less-fortunate.

The corporations are the problem, but only because the government let them be the problem.

But I'm about done with this. I don't know much about economics, and try to ignore politics. I was mostly just responding to the tone of the conversation. The Mormon attitude toward the poor is diametrically opposed to that of the New Testament Jesus, and I find it disgusting.

I agree. I think it is best to bow out, amigo. Not because of any lack of knowledge, but rather due to a repeated pattern of generalities that are basically unhelpful. You have generalized corporate America, conservatives, investment bankers, Mormons, the government, the poor, the less fortunate, the military, and even the college educated. A bit much for one afternoon.

I still am a fan though!

[woot]

Once again, woot proves that self-righteousness is not exclusive to religious folks.

Yes, Jesus was extremely self-righteous. But at least on the issue of the poor, he was also correct.

I agree. I think it is best to bow out, amigo. Not because of any lack of knowledge, but rather due to a repeated pattern of generalities that are basically unhelpful. You have generalized corporate America, conservatives, investment bankers, Mormons, the government, the poor, the less fortunate, the military, and even the college educated. A bit much for one afternoon.

I still am a fan though!

I entered this conversation to begin with to try to combat the ignorant generalities. The difference is that my generalities are true for the vast majority of people, whereas the stereotype that poor people are lazy and unemployed and successful people are mostly thus because they worked hard, which are the myths that nearly every response in this thread has been based on, are mostly not true.

Ok, now I'm really off. Have a lovely T-Day.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yes, Jesus was extremely self-righteous. But at least on the issue of the poor, he was also correct.

Yes, you are taking sides with Jesus on this one. We get it.

[TripletDaddy]

I entered this conversation to begin with to try to combat the ignorant generalities. The difference is that my generalities are true for the vast majority of people

love it.