The Police Brutality Thread

[Uncle Ted]

No, she didn't get off. But you all are outraged that she wasn't allowed to behave the way she did and just drive off.

What the hell good does a warrant for an arrest do for her when you believe she should be able to resist arrest without consequence? Lol. That is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous... she would have a warrant for her arrest for resisting arrest. A felony. As a member of her jury I would look at the evidence and say: "Yep, she had a broken tail light. And yep, she was resisting arrest. I hope the judge throws the book at her."

But now, if I was on the jury and saw that video I would say, "The cop didn't have to do that. Good hell, he shocked the piss out of her with that taser. She was obviously upset and he should have just tried to not escalated the situation and made it worse especially over an $80 ticket."

I'll pick up the ACLU cudgel her for a moment. This reminds me a little of the incident with which Malcolm Gladwell begins and ends his book Talking to Strangers in which a cop and a young black woman both overreact to a situation because of preconceived notions and prejudices, and a simple situation worsens quickly into a fatality. Although the woman was more at fault in this instance, with the benefit of several minutes to think about this (something the officer unfortunately didn't have), I would have let her go because (i) he already had all the information he needed to cite her, including videographic evidence, so her signature was unnecessary and there was no reason to insist on one, and (ii) neither the nature of her violation nor her initial state of mind posed a threat to herself, the officer, or the public. If the fine(s) aren't paid on time, they can impound her vehicle without her willing participation. She was wrong, and this doesn't rise to the level of a cause celebre, but the officer had all he needed and should have let her return to her lair.

Yeah, what PAC said.

Crazy, upset people are unpredictable so why take the risk when you don't have to. Also, she is obviously a drumpf supporter so she most likely doesn't wear masks and has the Kung Flu. Just stay the heck away from her and live to fight another day.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's not ridiculous... she would have a warrant for her arrest for resisting arrest. A felony. As a member of her jury I would look at the evidence and say: "Yep, she had a broken tail light. And yep, she was resisting arrest. I hope the judge throws the book at her."

But now, if I was on the jury and saw that video I would say, "The cop didn't have to do that. Good hell, he shocked the piss out of her with that taser. She was obviously upset and he should have just tried to not escalated the situation and made it worse especially over an $80 ticket."

So walk us through what happens when she gets pulled over on that warrant. Still started with a dumb $80 fine, right? Just keep pulling her over to see if she is in a better mood next time?

"OK, I see you are still upset about this. Have a nice day and we will catch you later."

[Bo Diddley]

I'll pick up the ACLU cudgel for a moment. This reminds me a little of the incident with which Malcolm Gladwell begins and ends his book Talking to Strangers in which a cop and a young black woman both overreact to a situation because of preconceived notions and prejudices, and a simple situation worsens quickly into a fatality. Although the woman was more at fault in this instance, with the benefit of several minutes to think about this (something the officer unfortunately didn't have), I would have let her go because (i) he already had all the information he needed to cite her, including videographic evidence, so her signature was unnecessary and there was no reason to insist on one, and (ii) neither the nature of her violation nor her initial state of mind posed a threat to herself, the officer, or the public. If the fine(s) aren't paid on time, they can impound her vehicle without her willing participation. She was wrong, and this doesn't rise to the level of a cause celebre, but the officer had all he needed and should have let her return to her lair.

This.

Police officers should be better able to de-escalate situations. Some people are just better at doing that than others. But his reaction was predictable based on the training I received in the academy. After working a few years in the prison, I developed advanced de-escalation skills that have served me well in some pretty hairy situations.

[Copelius]

I'll pick up the ACLU cudgel for a moment. This reminds me a little of the incident with which Malcolm Gladwell begins and ends his book Talking to Strangers in which a cop and a young black woman both overreact to a situation because of preconceived notions and prejudices, and a simple situation worsens quickly into a fatality. Although the woman was more at fault in this instance, with the benefit of several minutes to think about this (something the officer unfortunately didn't have), I would have let her go because (i) he already had all the information he needed to cite her, including videographic evidence, so her signature was unnecessary and there was no reason to insist on one, and (ii) neither the nature of her violation nor her initial state of mind posed a threat to herself, the officer, or the public. If the fine(s) aren't paid on time, they can impound her vehicle without her willing participation. She was wrong, and this doesn't rise to the level of a cause celebre, but the officer had all he needed and should have let her return to her lair.

Not sure about that jurisdiction, but if someone refuses to sign in Utah, the officer just writes, "refused to sign," and gives them the ticket and goes on his merry way. If that jurisdiction requires a signature or arrest, I think its legislature should address it.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Not sure about that jurisdiction, but if someone refuses to sign in Utah, the officer just writes, "refused to sign," and gives them the ticket and goes on his merry way. If that jurisdiction requires a signature or arrest, I think its legislature should address it.

That's the way it should be, of course, especially when the officer has a video record of the person being cited and the refusal to sign. But your point intrigued me enough to perform three minutes of legal research (typical for me on projects nowadays) and I found this on the relevant state web page for traffic violations:

If you wish to contest the ticket, you will have the opportunity to explain your point of view of what happened in court. Your acceptance and signature on a traffic ticket is not an admission of guilt, however, the refusal to sign a traffic ticket may result in your arrest.[Emphasis added]

. But note the permissive "may," allowing an officer discretion. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, I think the officer should have simply tipped his cap and moved on, but he was certainly acting within his authority.

[BigFatMeanie]

That's the way it should be, of course, especially when the officer has a video record of the person being cited and the refusal to sign. But your point intrigued me enough to perform three minutes of legal research (typical for me on projects nowadays) and I found this on the relevant state web page for traffic violations:

. But note the permissive "may," allowing an officer discretion. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, I think the officer should have simply tipped his cap and moved on, but he was certainly acting within his authority.

I agree with this. As I stated earlier, I think the officer jumped pretty quickly to "step out of the car, you're under arrest"; however, everything that happened after that is the idiot woman's fault and she got what she deserved, IMNSHO.

[Uncle Ted]

So walk us through what happens when she gets pulled over on that warrant. Still started with a dumb $80 fine, right? Just keep pulling her over to see if she is in a better mood next time?

"OK, I see you are still upset about this. Have a nice day and we will catch you later."

He should have just explained to her that she needed to chill or she could a felony on her record. Like PAC said the officer had all the information he needed to cite her and didn't need to escalate things. The judge would review it and most likely issue the warrant. Maybe if he clearly told her that she could be in serious trouble (charged with resisting arrest, have a warrant out on her, being facing X number of years in prison, etc.) if she didn't sign the ticket then maybe she would have become clueful and just signed the stupid $80 ticket instead.

Now she is facing some serious charges she will most likely be asking for a trial by jury. With the right jury she could maybe get off most of the charges because the officer didn't really help in de-escalating the situation and looked more like he was having a power trip on a 65 year old woman. You don't know what people's situations are. Maybe she is being abused by her husband or someone ran over her dog that day. She was clearly upset. Just because she is being an *sshole doesn't mean the cop has to be one too. While he was in his right to take her down the way he did he didn't have to do it that way. Yeah, it is a good thing I won't be on her jury. I would definitely ask the judge to have the cop demonstrate being tased.

"Now what would happen if the taser probes got you in the balls, officer? Can you please show us what kind of pain that would infect on a person? Oh wow, man. That looks really painful. You must have really given it to grandma laying there on the ground! It was lucky of you that you didn't give her an heart attack, bro."

[Sleeping in EQ]

Dude, I almost always side against the cops in these instances (I also think it's interesting how folks on this board with family ties to law enforcement almost always side with the cops). But in this case, I'm firmly on Team Cop.

I do think the cop moved pretty quickly from her refusal to sign to "go ahead and step out of the car", but once he told her she was under arrest, everything that happened after that is on her (from the video on CNN's website):

He told her she was under arrest at :42.
He told her to step out at :42
again at :44
again at :46
again at :47
again at :48 where he explicitly tells her he's giving her a lawful order.
So what does she do? She rolls up her window and potentially locks her door!

At :58 he explicitly warns her to not take off.
At 1:02 he tells her to step out again
Again at 1:03
So what does she do? She flees. She continues to flee a cop with lights and sirens for 4 minutes!

He tells her at 1:34 to get out of the car
again at 1:37
again at 1:39
again at 1:41.
When he finally gets her door open to remove her at 1:44
What does she do? She fights back and hits at him!

He tells her to put her hands behind her back at 1:49,
again at 1:50
What does she do? she kicks him at 1:56!

He starts pulling his taser out at 1:57
he fires it at 2:00 as she's still actively getting up
he orders her at 2:05 to again put her hands behind her back (admittedly that's probably pretty hard to do when you're getting tased)
again at 2:10
again at 2:14.

And you think she got humiliated? The humiliation she suffered was completely self-inflicted.

When you say, "she can pay the price for her behavior", which "behavior" are you talking about? The behavior of driving around with a smashed in tail light for 6 months? If so, I agree. The price of that behavior was $80, but she obviously didn't want to pay that price.

Or are you talking about the price of all her behavior after :42? The price for all that behavior is exactly what she got. She's lucky she didn't pay the price of taking a bullet after she kicked the cop "because she's a country girl".

Sorry man, you're just flat out wrong on this one.

Yep.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I agree with this. As I stated earlier, I think the officer jumped pretty quickly to "step out of the car, you're under arrest"; however, everything that happened after that is the idiot woman's fault and she got what she deserved, IMNSHO.

I'm kind of enjoying my newfound role as the board bleeding heart, and I realize I'm belaboring this nearly year-old incident at this point, but I'd add to the timeline you provided that at the 0:58 mark she snarls, "Give me that and I'll sign it!." Rather than hand her the ticket, the officer responds, "We're way beyond that," and insists that she get of of the car. Why?

I don't like second-guessing a cop's decision in the heat of the moment, but I don't see why there had to be any heat in this moment. This was a crotchety old grandma. Among other things, the officer could have first explained that if she didn't sign the ticket he would have to arrest her, rather than "surprise" her with the arrest. This collar was less than righteous.

[Shaka]

The cop could have de-escalated the situation by allowing her to sign it when she backed down. But then she drove off and then I sided with the cop.

Oh eff that. She deserved what she got. The cop was being extremely accomodating until she turned into a lunatic.

[All-American]

I'm kind of enjoying my newfound role as the board bleeding heart, and I realize I'm belaboring this nearly year-old incident at this point, but I'd add to the timeline you provided that at the 0:58 mark she snarls, "Give me that and I'll sign it!." Rather than hand her the ticket, the officer responds, "We're way beyond that," and insists that she get of of the car. Why?

I don't like second-guessing a cop's decision in the heat of the moment, but I don't see why there had to be any heat in this moment. This was a crotchety old grandma. Among other things, the officer could have first explained that if she didn't sign the ticket he would have to arrest her, rather than "surprise" her with the arrest. This collar was less than righteous.

That one moment, where she says she will sign, is the one point where I think it is even possible the officer was beyond the line of permissible conduct. I’ll have to give that point some thought.

Otherwise, I think he was entitled to do everything he did. But even then there were plenty of times when he could have taken a better course of action. They won’t use this video as an example of best practices, that’s for sure.

[All-American]

And it wasn’t a registration issue. The back of her truck, including lights, was smashed up


https://kubrick.htvapps.com/htv-prod...h&resize=660:*

[smokymountainrain]

This one is on Karen. The cop was plenty patient.


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[smokymountainrain]

disgusting. senseless. hard to imagine any possible justification.

[Northwestcoug]

disgusting. senseless. hard to imagine any possible justification.

Well you know, forgers can turn on you in an instant, even when a knee is on their neck. And black forgers?!? The most dangerous kind.