Michelle Bachmann's Head is a Novelty Fishbowl

[PaloAltoCougar]

...I don't know why you don't think these statements are both crazy and offensive:

The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis.

??? I haven't read about Tuskegee in a long time, but my pretty clear recollection is that the study was heavy laden with lies, half truths and misleading statements, and that participants outside the U.S. were, in fact, deliberately infected. I also recall that patients in the U.S. were denied penicillin even after it was determined to be an effective treatment. Am I misinformed?

And while I deplore Wright's inflammatory rhetoric, especially the "God damn America declarations," I can understand why a black congregation would have considerable skepticism about U.S. institutions that, despite the great things and basic goodness we've experienced because of them, have been responsible for some pretty shameful conduct in the past, particularly toward African Americans and third world nations.

[RobinFinderson]

??? I haven't read about Tuskegee in a long time, but my pretty clear recollection is that the study was heavy laden with lies, half truths and misleading statements, and that participants outside the U.S. were, in fact, deliberately infected. I also recall that patients in the U.S. were denied penicillin even after it was determined to be an effective treatment. Am I misinformed?

And while I deplore Wright's inflammatory rhetoric, especially the "God damn America declarations," I can understand why a black congregation would have considerable skepticism about U.S. institutions that, despite the great things and basic goodness we've experienced because of them, have been responsible for some pretty shameful conduct in the past, particularly toward African Americans and third world nations.

If pressed on it, Jacob will focus on Wright's claim that the government gave syphilis to the participants in the study. The government didn't do that. The government DID allow men with syphilis to give it to their wives, who in turn gave it to their newborn children. When penicillin became the cheap, effective and widely available treatment of syphilis, the government DID steer the participants of the study away from health services where they could have been treated, in order to continue studying the rate of infection. But the government didn't actively give anyone syphilis. They only let known infectors pass it along to women and children.

[PaloAltoCougar]

If pressed on it, Jacob will focus on Wright's claim that the government gave syphilis to the participants in the study. The government didn't do that. The government DID allow men with syphilis to give it to their wives, who in turn gave it to their newborn children. When penicillin became the cheap, effective and widely available treatment of syphilis, the government DID steer the participants of the study away from health services where they could have been treated, in order to continue studying the rate of infection. But the government didn't actively give anyone syphilis. They only let known infectors pass it along to women and children.

You're right with respect to activities in the U.S. (although as you note the misconduct in the states was still egregious), but I just did a quick Google search and it certainly appears that government-funded researchers did, indeed, intentionally infect people with the disease. But they were Guatemalans so no biggie, I guess.

[byu71]

If pressed on it, Jacob will focus on Wright's claim that the government gave syphilis to the participants in the study. The government didn't do that. The government DID allow men with syphilis to give it to their wives, who in turn gave it to their newborn children. When penicillin became the cheap, effective and widely available treatment of syphilis, the government DID steer the participants of the study away from health services where they could have been treated, in order to continue studying the rate of infection. But the government didn't actively give anyone syphilis. They only let known infectors pass it along to women and children.

Following this line of reasoning, I and a lot of people have some reason to preach hate for America. Certainly those of us who have ancestors who were harassed and even killed have a right to hate Missouri and Illinois. Of course those people whose ancestors were at Mtn Meadow and killed there have a right to hate Utah.

You are making a strong persuasion convincing me to not want to give a damn dime to America. If the government can do these things, what other horrendous things could they be doing with my tax dollars.

Perhaps you and I can at least agree we hope the debt ceiling is not raised and the country goes bankrupt. It would only be justice served.

[RobinFinderson]

Following this line of reasoning, I and a lot of people have some reason to preach hate for America. Certainly those of us who have ancestors who were harassed and even killed have a right to hate Missouri and Illinois. Of course those people whose ancestors were at Mtn Meadow and killed there have a right to hate Utah.

You are making a strong persuasion convincing me to not want to give a damn dime to America. If the government can do these things, what other horrendous things could they be doing with my tax dollars.

Perhaps you and I can at least agree we hope the debt ceiling is not raised and the country goes bankrupt. It would only be justice served.

I take exception with the characterization of Wright's views as 'hate.' That is the problem. Rather than discussing the merits of his ideas, or whether they represent a type of 'rightful anger,' they get labeled as 'hate,' and that is the end of the discussion.

BTW, you don't have to look as far back as Missouri and Illinois to find the government abusing Mormons. IMO, the nuclear testing in Nevada that left a trail of fallout cutting right through our recent Mormon ancestors' back yards, rivals Tuskegee in terms of government insidiousness.

But it isn't necessarily 'hate,' which is the word we attribute to terrorists, that leads a man like Wright to criticize his government in very strong terms. If you had family members who were deemed 'expendable' in terms of Coldwar cost/benefit analysis, and they died of cancer due to the fallout, you might have some choice words for the authorities who knowingly let the fallout settle in Mormon children's playgrounds.

[byu71]

you might have some choice words for the authorities who knowingly let the fallout settle in Mormon children's playgrounds.

Yes, I might. I doubt I would do a GD America though. However, it is very clear you and I aren't going to come to agreement on the Reverend Wright.

Perhaps we can agree on the fact that in America he is allowed to spew whatever he wishes and you can agree with him and I can disagree with him.

[wuapinmon]

Bachmann in South Carolina on Saturday night regarding the deficit:

“We need to simply tell people the facts, like Glenn Beck, with that chalkboard, that man can explain anything. I think if we give Glenn Beck the numbers, he can solve this.”

You can't make this shit up...

Glenn Beck, QeD

[oxcoug]

Apparently you know more about standard Lutheran doctrine than you do about standard Black Theology. What folks need to understand wrt Brother Wright is that he represents a fairly typical preacher coming from the tradition of Black American Christiandom. When African slaves first found themselves in the US, the segregated Black churches were a primary institution of cultural adaptation. Because those churches developed a Christian theology separate from white churches, they developed a unique American perspective on Christianity. One specific aspect of Black churches was their focus on the literal and metaphorical meanings of liberation. Cloaked in the coded metaphorical language of 'spiritual liberation,' the black churches provided slaves the opportunity to discuss their physical bondage, and understand it in the context of the Jews' bondage under the Pharaoh and Roman Empire. In this way Black churches have hosted a critical dialogue, centered on the plight of the poor, since their very beginning. These churches continued to develop critiques of power, looking at both the government and private institutions, as they wended their way through the days of slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, Civil Rights, and into the present. Jeremiah Wright stands on the shoulders of giants as part of a long American tradition that is the Black church movement in the United States.

The thing with Wright is, he isn't some anomaly in tradition of Black churches. He is a fairly typical Black leader. Because of this, when Obama's political enemies decided to attack Obama by interpreting Wright's words in the most derogatory possible way, they were inadvertently (and hopefully unwittingly) attacking the Black Christian church as an American institution. Yes, the Black Christian church has a long tradition of criticizing American policy that goes back to slavery and Jim Crow, and it was this tradition that gave rise to Wright's remarks about America as a perpetrator of violence on the global stage. I think such a perspective has value in American dialogue, especially coming from the Black church, which has as one of its highest tradition the recognition of the continuity of people's historical struggles.

Anyhow, the big point here is, the attacks on Obama via J. Wright were more hurtful and meant a lot more than most white Americans realize.

Robby this is a thread about how stupid Michele Bachmann is. If you'd like to have a thread focused on defending the indefensible Jeremiah Wright I suggest you start it. Check that, maybe I'll do it for you!

[BigFatMeanie]

I take exception with the characterization of Wright's views as 'hate.' That is the problem. Rather than discussing the merits of his ideas, or whether they represent a type of 'rightful anger,' they get labeled as 'hate,' and that is the end of the discussion.

You mean just like someone's support of traditional marriage gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's opposition to the ERA gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's support of strong enforcement of immigration laws gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's opposition to various social programs gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?


I can't wait to hear you speak out about wrongly labeling thing as 'hate' the next time those subjects are discussed...

[Tim]

You mean just like someone's support of traditional marriage gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's opposition to the ERA gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's support of strong enforcement of immigration laws gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?

You mean just like someone's opposition to various social programs gets labeled as 'hate' and that is the end of the discussion?


I can't wait to hear you speak out about wrongly labeling thing as 'hate' the next time those subjects are discussed...

Dude, you're such a hater!

[Borderline Divine]

And back to Bachmann

Heres a delightfully undersourced hatchet piece on Sister Michelle from of all places the Daily Caller. I love it when the right attacks the right using the same tactics that have worked so well when they attack the left: innuendo, multiple unnamed sources and thinly veiled contempt.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/18/st...l-use-alleged/

[oxcoug]

Disqualifier #39 on Bachmann: She and her lovable gay-curing hubby supported Carter in 76 and attended his inauguration.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

[Green Monstah]

Bachmann is going to kill Romney's chances. Like 08, Romney is depending on a W in Iowa. I spoke with some friends from Iowa, and they are in love with "Iowa native" Bachmann (born in Waterloo, but moved to MN when she was young). She's far right, she's Christian, she has no connection to state healthcare, etc. She's going to be the Huckabee of '08.

Ox:

Lame fat husband smack. Some of our spouses are quite fond of their fat husbands.

[LA Ute]

Bachmann is going to kill Romney's chances. Like 08, Romney is depending on a W in Iowa. I spoke with some friends from Iowa, and they are in love with "Iowa native" Bachmann (born in Waterloo, but moved to MN when she was young). She's far right, she's Christian, she has no connection to state healthcare, etc. She's going to be the Huckabee of '08.

Ox:

Lame fat husband smack. Some of our spouses are quite fond of their fat husbands.

I don't think Romney is going to compete seriously in Iowa, because he knows he can't win.

[YOhio]

Disqualifier #39 on Bachmann: She and her fat hubby supported Carter in 76 and attended his inauguration.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

What if he was skinny then? Is she still disqualified?