Elon Musk is a weirdo POS

[dabrockster]

This is one good discussion on what is a human right and what is our or gives responsibility. I am of rhe mindset that we as humans should help others and we do this through our donations to our church. I also donate to the local food pantry as well as local homeless shelters.

I think govt has a role but I also donate not believe we are a society can take on all responsibilities not tax the million/ billionaires to cover these aspects in our communities. Greed, selfishness, natural-man tend to corrupt and exploit what is a good intent for their own benefit.

When people are forced into such endeavors, the people will eventually revolt. We as a society are not that giving and we also we are inherently are suspicious of those who have control of this.

I don’t see this being successful but exploited until we reach a level of goodness in the world. Or simply out. After the second coming.

[frank ryan]

The rest of your argument aside, this sentiment leaves me wondering why you've completely neglected to mention Europe, or Asian nations like Japan or Korea, or why there's no mention of the U.S rates historically? Progressive rates are not new and they are hardly only in the realm of failed systems in third world countries. The US has had progressive tax rates our entire lives and the very wealthy paid a greater share in the "great" days certain folks want to get back to than they do now. Western Europe thrives with progressive taxes and they tend to rate their quality of life much higher than we do ours.

Progressive tax rates have served us well.


I can respect the position of those who say healthcare and food aren't an inherent right. I have less feeling around healthcare. But functionally, I think food security and basic (emphasis on basic) healthcare should be treated as a right, and not just for altruism. It's good to live in a place where people don't have to starve unless they try to.

[SteelBlue]

Exactly. You can make a compelling argument that the government should work to provide these, .

Speaking solely of food security, I think you could make a compelling argument that a government that can't provide this will not be the government very long.

[Goatnapper'96]

I am not saying to not help those in need. However the duty of a follower of Christ/Jehova to care for the less fortunate is one that is taken upon oneself not forced upon another.

Well Senator Harry Reid probably didn't invite you to the Mormon Democrat Caucaus at the 2016 DNC despite how much your skillset would have improved their opening hymn of "Have I Done Any Good."

[frank ryan]

Speaking solely of food security, I think you could make a compelling argument that a government that can't provide this will not be the government very long.

No one wants to live in a failed state where the strong just rule over the weak. Go to Somalia for that. It's a failed state where warlords rule.

Social Darwinism isn't good for most people and it's fundamentally anti-Christian. It reminds me of something Anton Lavey, the founder of the Church of Satan once said.
I'm paraphrasing but he said, "Satanism is Ayn Rand with a little bit of ritual thrown in."

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's a commandment. There's no ambiguity here. Church welfare exist precisely because food and shelter are a basic human right. Church welfare "requires the labor and resources of other people," to fulfill its mandate.

No, they are not basic human rights. They are basic human needs. There is a big difference. Helping others meet their needs is the Christian thing to do. But I can't demand that someone feed me by claiming that as a right.

[Bo Diddley]

No, they are not basic human rights. They are basic human needs. There is a big difference. Helping others meet their needs is the Christian thing to do. But I can't demand that someone feed me by claiming that as a right.

I'm not saying I disagree, but I do wonder if someone living on the wrong side of that equation can come to the same conclusion. But I'm well fed, so I can think about this more academically.

[Northwestcoug]

No, they are not basic human rights.

Should be, is all I'm saying.

[tooblue]

No, they are not basic human rights. They are basic human needs. There is a big difference. Helping others meet their needs is the Christian thing to do. But I can't demand that someone feed me by claiming that as a right.

I get you want to parse this, but there is no ambiguity here. Morally speaking, needs as defined means necessity: "the fact of required or indispensable." Required means: "officially compulsory." Compulsory means: "required by law or a rule."

Thus by stating "They are basic human needs," you have declared that they are a right guaranteed by God's law.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I get you want to parse this, but there is no ambiguity here. Morally speaking, needs as defined means necessity: "the fact of required or indispensable." Required means: "officially compulsory." Compulsory means: "required by law or a rule."

Thus by stating "They are basic human needs," you have declared that they are a right guaranteed by God's law.

Ha. Nope.

[YOhio]

No, they are not basic human rights. They are basic human needs. There is a big difference. Helping others meet their needs is the Christian thing to do. But I can't demand that someone feed me by claiming that as a right.

Healthcare and food aren’t basic human rights because that would implicitly give you a right to someone else’s labor, undermining individual autonomy for the producer. Human rights can't force affirmative obligations on others, rather they exist to protect freedom and agency.

I think it's a really interesting question from a religious perspective as well. One of the major punishments given to Adam and Eve upon departing the Garden of Eden is that 'by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread.' Presumably a major contrast to their experience in the garden. The only other time God consistently provided 'no labor' food for mankind was manna, which came with a set of rules governing collection, consumption, and storage. When Christ came it's clear that he knew the importance of healthcare and food, 90% of his miracles in the New Testament were related to one of those two issues. Not that it makes it access to those two resources a basic human right. Rather, as JL points out, Christlike behavior requires us to feed and heal.

[tooblue]

Ha. Nope.

You have lost the argument, not with me, but with the tenants of your own faith and the words you used.

[tooblue]

Healthcare and food aren’t basic human rights because that would implicitly give you a right to someone else’s labor, undermining individual autonomy for the producer. Human rights can't force affirmative obligations on others, rather they exist to protect freedom and agency.

I think it's a really interesting question from a religious perspective as well. One of the major punishments given to Adam and Eve upon departing the Garden of Eden is that 'by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread.' Presumably a major contrast to their experience in the garden. The only other time God consistently provided 'no labor' food for mankind was manna, which came with a set of rules governing collection, consumption, and storage. When Christ came it's clear that he knew the importance of healthcare and food, 90% of his miracles in the New Testament were related to one of those two issues. Not that it makes it access to those two resources a basic human right. Rather, as JL points out, Christlike behavior requires us to feed and heal.

Imagine standing in front of Christ and explaining: ya, I was a free market loving American first and your disciple second. I could've gone along with laws and governance that strived to balance the blessings of agency with caring for the needy and poor, but guns and freedom and all that—you know.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You have lost the argument, not with me, but with the tenants of your own faith and the words you used.

[USUC]

Is it Christian for you to compel others through force to give up a portion of their income to government programs, a portion of which may go to food stamps? Seems like there isn't much service involved relying on others to fund and distribute food.