Hamas big killed

[Maximus]

Here's a question I have regarding the return to 1967 borders: Why is it so important? I think it's odd that the losing parties of a war demand to have territory returned to them. Mexico isn't demanding the United States return its territories, and Germany isn't still trying to get back what it lost after WWI. That aside, I think the bigger issue is that the chances of ever returning to those borders gets smaller with every passing year. The longer something is the status quo, the harder it is to change. I know that people can argue about the Six Day War and whether or not Israel should've even been created in the first place, but that seems counter-productive to me. It seems like they need to start addressing things as they are now.

From my small study on the matter, it seemed like the plan Ehud Barak proposed at the Camp David Summit was a good one (give back the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank and compensation in exchange for Arafat giving up the idea of a return to the 1967 borders and the right of return) that dealt with things as they are, but Arafat was so hung up on those two ideas, he refused to agree. If any Palestinian government keeps holding onto those ideas, I don't think a deal will ever be made no matter what other concessions Israel makes.

The problem with Barak's proposal was there was a bunch of territory that Israel would not give Palestine for an undisclosed amount of time to be left up to Israel, Israel would have control of the vital water resources, of the Palestinian borders, etc. Palestine would not really be a state.

[Maximus]

Has anyone seen Waltz with Bashir? Isn't it great that Israel is the kind of country where a film like that can be made? Isn't it great that Israel is the kind of country where a corrupt Prime Minister can be induced by the will of the people and the political process to resign? Is it the only place in the Middle East that is that way? Hamas, for example, is authoritarian thugs.

Yes, the PA has a big problem with corruption. Too bad the beacon of light that is Israel treats all Palestinians as second class citizens at best.

In other news, Hamas has actually done a great job of governing the Gaza strip

http://www.kabobfest.com/2010/01/ten...t-in-gaza.html

[statman]

Israel has not tried ending the occupation.

They most certainly have. Several times. And what did it get them? More terrorism - because they showed weakness...

Prior to Oslo, Israel agreed to virtually all of the terrorists demands - 1967 borders, self-rule. Access to parts of Jerusalem. And what did it get them? rockets and suicide attacks...

[Maximus]

They most certainly have. Several times. And what did it get them? More terrorism - because they showed weakness...

Prior to Oslo, Israel agreed to virtually all of the terrorists demands - 1967 borders, self-rule. Access to parts of Jerusalem. And what did it get them? rockets and suicide attacks...

um, link to said proposal?

[TripletDaddy]

As a side note, I must say that I would have never pegged Maximus as a Palestinian sympathizer. Is anyone else surprised?

I'm not saying it is a good or a bad thing, btw. Just making an observation.

[thesaint258]

The problem with Barak's proposal was there was a bunch of territory that Israel would not give Palestine for an undisclosed amount of time to be left up to Israel, Israel would have control of the vital water resources, of the Palestinian borders, etc. Palestine would not really be a state.

I get the water issue (I wasn't aware of that), but not the others. While the proposal did allow for indefinite Israeli control in some areas, nearly 75% of the West Bank would've been given to the Palestinians immediately. I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to want to keep some of the West Bank. It seems like Palestinian negotiators want Israel to give up everything while doing nothing in return.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't know, but I certainly would be willing to listent to some expert tell me why it doesn't provide additional security for the Israeli's.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Now, are you sure in your mind that the security of Israel isn't helped? If you are sure, then I guess you don't have to think past stopping them from doing settlements because if the Israeli's stop the settlements everyting will be fine.

Don't twist my statements like that. It doesn't solve everything but it is most egregious problem in the region at the moment and it has zero justification (other than a naked land grab). GWB was the first president in history to not condemn the settlements and demand that they stop. Obama has at least talked about applying pressure. Unfortunately, no president yet has had the guts to actually put some teeth into the problem. Such as cut back on the multi-billion dollar check we write to Israel each year.

Now, I am willing to listen to you and Maximus and Sloan and Robin for your solutions. However, I want to hear how you will also deal with consequences.

We are already dealing with consequences, amigo.

[Jeff Lebowski]

They most certainly have. Several times. And what did it get them? More terrorism - because they showed weakness...

Prior to Oslo, Israel agreed to virtually all of the terrorists demands - 1967 borders, self-rule. Access to parts of Jerusalem. And what did it get them? rockets and suicide attacks...

Boy that is just nonsense.

And if you define all Palestinians as terrorists then it shows you aren't really interested in looking at the issue objectively.

[statman]

Boy that is just nonsense.

And if you define all Palestinians as terrorists then it shows you aren't really interested in looking at the issue objectively.

Did Arafat not represent the terrorist PLO at Oslo?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I get the water issue (I wasn't aware of that), but not the others. While the proposal did allow for indefinite Israeli control in some areas, nearly 75% of the West Bank would've been given to the Palestinians immediately. I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to want to keep some of the West Bank. It seems like Palestinian negotiators want Israel to give up everything while doing nothing in return.

There were actually three types of areas proposed: PA control, Israeli control, and joint control. You should look at a map of the proposal. The PA-controlled areas were little disjoint islands for the most part. The proposal basically would have codified the existing occupation. And without water and ability to build roads and infrastructure throughout the region, there were have been no real hope to establish a viable economy.

[creekster]

There were actually three types of areas proposed: PA control, Israeli control, and joint control. You should look at a map of the proposal. The PA-controlled areas were little disjoint islands for the most part. The proposal basically would have codified the existing occupation. And without water and ability to build roads and infrastructure throughout the region, there were have been no real hope to establish a viable economy.

Wasn't the apparent but unstated purpose to assimilate the PA areas into the Israeli economy and society? IOW, the PA would be fractured and unable to control its own infrastructure and so would eventually be co opted by the reality of the Israeli economic and social presence. That's how I understood it, although I could certainly be wrong about it.

[SeattleUte]

Wasn't the apparent but unstated purpose to assimilate the PA areas into the Israeli economy and society? IOW, the PA would be fractured and unable to control its own infrastructure and so would eventually be co opted by the reality of the Israeli economic and social presence. That's how I understood it, although I could certainly be wrong about it.

What a terrible fate.

Yes, this kind of thing happened to Japanese and German fascism vis-a-vis Western democratic and socialist institutions. Liberty assimilates irresistably. Ironically, it also permits a people to maintain their culture and traditions with its framework, even as they realize their potential to prosper.

[Jeff Lebowski]

What a terrible fate.

Yes, this kind of thing happened to Japanese and German fascism vis-a-vis Western democratic and socialist institutions. Liberty assimilates irresistably. Ironically, it also permits a people to maintain their culture and traditions with its framework, even as they realize their potential to prosper.

I am sure the Palestinians would be ecstatic if Israel treated them the way the US treated the conquered Germans and Japanese.

[SeattleUte]

I am sure the Palestinians would be ecstatic if Israel treated them the way the US treated the conquered Germans and Japanese.

The German and Japanese people never did want WWII. Their leaders, however, did. Hamas does not want the Palestinian people to be assimilated in Israel, even if they retain their tradiations and culture. If you think otherwise you're naive.

[landpoke]

we're so close to having this figured out. I can almost taste it!

I don't really have anything to add, I just want to be able to tell my grandkids I was involved with the process.