Hamas big killed

[Maximus]

I don't get what kind of value system enables suicide bombers, killers of children and fascists to claim the high moral high ground over "occupiers of the West Bank." It's an old story--Palestinians suffer because their leaders are war mongers and mass murderers.

Ah so Israel kicked Palestinians out of their home in 1948 because before that they were such war mongers and mass murderers?

Oh wait, its SU

[Coach McGuirk]

Ah so Israel kicked Palestinians out of their home in 1948 because before that they were such war mongers and mass murderers?

Yes, But what about when Israel was driven out in 1000 B.C.?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I like that. What guarantees are you going to give the Israeli's if they abandon what they think is in their best interest to stay safe and they end up with a barage of attacks.

Really, I would like peace, but what is your back up plan if they get the settlements stopped and the Palestinians still stage terrorist attacks and Iran tries to get the nuke.

Perhaps you can explain to me how dropping an Israeli settlement in the middle of the West Bank (which typically involves bulldozing Palestinian homes and stealing farmland and water) promotes the security of Israel.

But you are on to the key tactic at play here. The threat of future terrorism provides sufficient cover for almost anything.

[byu71]

Yes, But what about when Israel was driven out in 1000 B.C.?

Damn good point. I hadn't even thought about that.

[Maximus]

Oh, and it seems we dont hear much about Israeli leader thuugs like the following:

"Eitam, who since then has held several senior posts in the Israeli government, has recently toured the US as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's "Special Emissary" to the "Caravan for Democracy" program of the Jewish National Fund (JNF)

In typical colonial fashion he has called Palestinians "creatures who came out of the depths of darkness" who were "collectively guilty" and who could be indiscriminately killed not only if they had "blood on their hands" but because of "the evil in their heads." "We will have to kill them all," he said ("A Reporter at Large: Among the Settlers", The New Yorker, 31 May 2004)."

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/1...-thug-messiah/

Nor how some Israeli citizens glorify Israeli terrorists

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4805.shtml

or this guy:

killed 30+ at Mosque in Hebron, and a shrine was set up near his grave to celebrate him:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/685792.stm

[SeattleUte]

Ah so Israel kicked Palestinians out of their home in 1948 because before that they were such war mongers and mass murderers?

Oh wait, its SU

If this is as sophisticated as you analysis gets I have nothing to say to you. I doubt you know the first thing about the region's history.

[byu71]

Perhaps you can explain to me how dropping an Israeli settlement in the middle of the West Bank (which typically involves bulldozing Palestinian homes and stealing farmland and water) promotes the security of Israel.

But you are on to the key tactic at play here. The threat of future terrorism provides sufficient cover for almost anything.

I don't know, but I certainly would be willing to listent to some expert tell me why it doesn't provide additional security for the Israeli's.

Now, are you sure in your mind that the security of Israel isn't helped? If you are sure, then I guess you don't have to think past stopping them from doing settlements because if the Israeli's stop the settlements everyting will be fine.

I want the crap over there to stop. I actually have some ideas I could support.

We tell the Israel's to stop with the settlements and we guarantee we will come in and kick the shit out of anyone that attacks them.

We relocate Israel to America and then tell the Arab countries they got what they wanted and if they still send terrorists our way, we will bomb the crap out of them.

Now, I am willing to listen to you and Maximus and Sloan and Robin for your solutions. However, I want to hear how you will also deal with consequences.

[Maximus]

If this is as sophisticated as you analysis gets I have nothing to say to you. I doubt you know the first thing about the region's history.

I was responding to the level of the post. Your post alone proved you really don't know the first thing about the history of the situation.

[Maximus]

I don't know, but I certainly would be willing to listent to some expert tell me why it doesn't provide additional security for the Israeli's.

Now, are you sure in your mind that the security of Israel isn't helped? If you are sure, then I guess you don't have to think past stopping them from doing settlements because if the Israeli's stop the settlements everyting will be fine.

I want the crap over there to stop. I actually have some ideas I could support.

We tell the Israel's to stop with the settlements and we guarantee we will come in and kick the shit out of anyone that attacks them.

We relocate Israel to America and then tell the Arab countries they got what they wanted and if they still send terrorists our way, we will bomb the crap out of them.

Now, I am willing to listen to you and Maximus and Sloan and Robin for your solutions. However, I want to hear how you will also deal with consequences.

Your solution would work if you didn't need the consent of Israelis.

Israel has not tried ending the occupation. Get out of the West Bank, build a huge wall separating the countries, have an International force at the borders, let the Palestinians have a real country, with a real economy, etc. That is a two sentence summary.

[creekster]

Oh, and it seems we dont hear much about Israeli leader thuugs like the following:

"Eitam, who since then has held several senior posts in the Israeli government, has recently toured the US as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's "Special Emissary" to the "Caravan for Democracy" program of the Jewish National Fund (JNF)

In typical colonial fashion he has called Palestinians "creatures who came out of the depths of darkness" who were "collectively guilty" and who could be indiscriminately killed not only if they had "blood on their hands" but because of "the evil in their heads." "We will have to kill them all," he said ("A Reporter at Large: Among the Settlers", The New Yorker, 31 May 2004)."

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/1...-thug-messiah/

Nor how some Israeli citizens glorify Israeli terrorists

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4805.shtml

or this guy:

killed 30+ at Mosque in Hebron, and a shrine was set up near his grave to celebrate him:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/685792.stm

Odd cases to be sure but a very poor basis for policy, or should we set policy here based on the glorification by some persons of McVeigh and Kaczinski?

[thesaint258]

Here's a question I have regarding the return to 1967 borders: Why is it so important? I think it's odd that the losing parties of a war demand to have territory returned to them. Mexico isn't demanding the United States return its territories, and Germany isn't still trying to get back what it lost after WWI. That aside, I think the bigger issue is that the chances of ever returning to those borders gets smaller with every passing year. The longer something is the status quo, the harder it is to change. I know that people can argue about the Six Day War and whether or not Israel should've even been created in the first place, but that seems counter-productive to me. It seems like they need to start addressing things as they are now.

From my small study on the matter, it seemed like the plan Ehud Barak proposed at the Camp David Summit was a good one (give back the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank and compensation in exchange for Arafat giving up the idea of a return to the 1967 borders and the right of return) that dealt with things as they are, but Arafat was so hung up on those two ideas, he refused to agree. If any Palestinian government keeps holding onto those ideas, I don't think a deal will ever be made no matter what other concessions Israel makes.

[byu71]

Your solution would work if you didn't need the consent of Israelis.

Israel has not tried ending the occupation. Get out of the West Bank, build a huge wall separating the countries, have an International force at the borders, let the Palestinians have a real country, with a real economy, etc. That is a two sentence summary.

My guess is part of the reason is the US will not give them any guarantees. Our best and brightest are probably saying, if we tie the hands of the Israeli's, then we will have a bigger problem later on.

I would think most of the US is sick and tired of the Arabs and Jews going at each other. Especially if we really believe Iran hates us, Bin Laden hates us and the other Arabs that hate us do so because of our support of Israel.

Now I couldn't care less if the Arabs hate us because we don't believe in their religion. However, if they are truly being suppressed by the Jews and if they weren't they wouldn't bug us, then I am all in favor of telling Israel to knock it off and I think most Americans would agree.

IF, and it is a big if, we could be convinced if Israel left them alone, they would leave all of us alone.

[SeattleUte]

Has anyone seen Waltz with Bashir? Isn't it great that Israel is the kind of country where a film like that can be made? Isn't it great that Israel is the kind of country where a corrupt Prime Minister can be induced by the will of the people and the political process to resign? Is it the only place in the Middle East that is that way? Hamas, for example, is authoritarian thugs.

[byu71]

Here's a question I have regarding the return to 1967 borders: Why is it so important? I think it's odd that the losing parties of a war demand to have territory returned to them. Mexico isn't demanding the United States return its territories, and Germany isn't still trying to get back what it lost after WWI. That aside, I think the bigger issue is that the chances of ever returning to those borders gets smaller with every passing year. The longer something is the status quo, the harder it is to change. I know that people can argue about the Six Day War and whether or not Israel should've even been created in the first place, but that seems counter-productive to me. It seems like they need to start addressing things as they are now.

From my small study on the matter, it seemed like the plan Ehud Barak proposed at the Camp David Summit was a good one (give back the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank and compensation in exchange for Arafat giving up the idea of a return to the 1967 borders and the right of return) that dealt with things as they are, but Arafat was so hung up on those two ideas, he refused to agree. If any Palestinian government keeps holding onto those ideas, I don't think a deal will ever be made no matter what other concessions Israel makes.

It might not be a bad idea to offer California and Arizona back to Mexico. Most illegals in California and Arizona would probably be pissed as would most Mexicans. They don't want California's debt.

[statman]

I want to hear how you will also deal with consequences.

Idealists don't consider such paltry things as consequences. In their minds, that's simply a trivial problem to be dealt with at a later date by the thugs in our military...