Thank you board!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Mindful, I know that there are many intelligent, open-minded Iranians, many of whom are also devout Muslims. I work with some Iranian doctors who have come to America since the Iranian Revolution and have a lot of respect for the greatness of Iranian history and culture, and for the role of properly applied Islam within Iran. But many Americans like President Bush seem to think that a democratically elected government (in Iraq for example) would suddenly decide to offer its people all of the same freedoms people enjoy in Western Europe and that would produce a government that would embrace the US and Israel.

Am I wrong to believe that a majority of Iranians and residents of other countries around the Middle East (obviously outside of Israel) want to live in an Islamic theocracy? One that denies the right of women to drive a car, own property, and have their own job and income? One that requires women to cover their heads and bodies? One that would require the death penalty for Muslims who reject Islamic teachings? One that would favor the annihilation of Israel by any means possible?

When I say backward or ignorant, I'm not referring to any Islamic belief except for the belief that religious laws should be imposed by legal force or by violence on those who don't wish to obey those religious laws. The desire to impose your religious beliefs and practices on others by force or by codification into law is ignorant and backward, whether you're a Mormon, a Southern Baptist, or a Muslim.

Cardiac, are you familiar with Farid Zakaria's writings on this topic? I haven't read this book, but I hear it is quite good:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/books/fof_main.html

Here is an article that summarizes his views on the topic:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/ARTICLE...democracy.html

A sampling:

Elections, open, free and fair, are the essence of democracy, the inescapable sine qua non. Governments produced by elections may be inefficient, corrupt, shortsighted, irresponsible, dominated by special interests, and incapable of adopting policies demanded by the public good. These qualities make such governments undesirable but they do not make them undemocratic. Democracy is one public virtue, not the only one, and the relation of democracy to other public virtues and vices can only be understood if democracy is clearly distinguished from the other characteristics of political systems.

[CardiacCoug]

Cardiac, are you familiar with Farid Zakaria's writings on this topic? I haven't read this book, but I hear it is quite good:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/books/fof_main.html

Here is an article that summarizes his views on the topic:

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/ARTICLE...democracy.html

A sampling:

Thanks for those. I'm a big fan of Fareed Zakaria but I haven't read that book yet.

In that article he talks about Alexander Lukashenko, the President of Belarus. He was legitimately elected shortly after I arrived in Belarus on my mission, and now is considered "The Last Dictator of Europe" after crushing and then terrorizing any opposition forces for the last 15 years. Lukashenko was even rumored to have offered his country as a site of amnesty for Saddam Hussein and his sons at the time of the US invasion.

[MindfulCoug]

Why? It's just more of the same old, same old. Both sides are wrong. Innocent people die along with the guilty. Nothing will arise from this that will get the Israelis and Palestinians closer to peace.

In light of that, there really isn't anything to discuss.

Aye .why bother opening that can again,when it snot directly targeting our lives and interests.

[MindfulCoug]

All truth of every faith will be circumscribed into one true faith. Some are prepared to wait for the mysteries of God to miraculously bring about this 'inevitability'. Others see themselves as God's instrument and are prepared to bring it to pass through force of law or armed conflict. Until that last sentence it's not entirely clear whether I was speaking of Mormon Christianity or Islam?

I dont think Practicing different aspects of the same values descended by God would necessarily make any conflicts,but putting your interest above others definitely will, regardless of the ideology of solidarity of religions in the light of the unifier.

Our faiths are not so different except for the fact that we do not send our young men to die as martyrs. We prefer to send them into the world as living examples discipleship.

Yeah .You would rather send your young men to slaughter other people in the name of freedom and democracy.

[Coach McGuirk]

Mindful, what would be a successful end to this conflict in your eyes?

[tooblue]

Only if Israel first recognizes their right to exist.

You see how helpful this simple logic is?

You can try to twist it as much as you like, but there's one problem. Israel has recognized their right to exist. They did withdraw their settlements. Yet Hamas continues to refuse to recognize Israel. So this isn't the game you thought it was going to be is it. Tee hee ... not!

Have you even tried to read about and understand the motivation behind this latest military action? It is to root out Hamas. Because Hamas is a terrorist organization that cannot be reigned in by a Palestinian authority with which Israel was willing to work!

[tooblue]

I dont think Practicing different aspects of the same values descended by God would necessarily make any conflicts,but putting your interest above others definitely will, regardless of the ideology of solidarity of religions in the light of the unifier.



Yeah .You would rather send your young men to slaughter other people in the name of freedom and democracy.

We would rather not send young men or WOMAN to die in the name of freedom and democracy as extended to all individuals regardless of race, creed or religion. Whereas to die as a martyr in the name of Islam appears to be esteemed above securing the most basic of rights associated with life for all human kind.

Who or what is putting it's interest above others? A suicide bomber not only puts his/her interest above his fellow human kind but attempts to put his or her interests above God's with the aim to circumvent God's judgement.

[MindfulCoug]

Mindful, what would be a successful end to this conflict in your eyes?

well ...Its the world water and resources war and the determining ideology of whom deserve them more. Its not just about Muslim Arabs or blacks and you would never know who their next target would be.

I bet there has been enough UN resolutions to start negotiating and achieving peace ,but since Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions, no peace progress is insight.

With the powerful UN mandatory resolutions which would guarantee their enforcement , meaningful peace talks can be proceed and various solutions can be reached for co-habitation with equal rights for all people between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan.

[tooblue]

well ...Its the world water and resources war and the determining ideology of whom deserve them more. Its not just about Muslim Arabs or blacks and you would never know who their next target would be.

I bet there has been enough UN resolutions to start negotiating and achieving peace ,but since Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions, no peace progress is insight.

With the powerful UN mandatory resolutions which would guarantee their enforcement , meaningful peace talks can be proceed and various solutions can be reached for co-habitation with equal rights for all people between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan.

But co-habitation with equal rights is not the goal of Hamas or Iran. Their goal is to wipe Israel from the map and impose Islamic law on every person.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You can try to twist it as much as you like, but there's one problem. Israel has recognized their right to exist. They did withdraw their settlements. Yet Hamas continues to refuse to recognize Israel. So this isn't the game you thought it was going to be is it. Tee hee ... not!

Thus illustrating Israel's brilliant political strategy regarding Gaza. Put a few tiny settlements in even though you know that Gaza is a shithole and not worth fighting for. Impose an economic blockade to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza will never become self-sufficient or develop a viable economy. Then pull out the settlements and pretend that it was some kind of huge concession (worked on tooblue), thus building up some political capital to take attention away from the real prize: the West Bank.

[tooblue]

Thus illustrating Israel's brilliant political strategy regarding Gaza. Put a few tiny settlements in even though you know that Gaza is a shithole and not worth fighting for. Impose an economic blockade to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza will never become self-sufficient or develop a viable economy. Then pull out the settlements and pretend that it was some kind of huge concession (worked on tooblue), thus building up some political capital to take attention away from the real prize: the West Bank.

None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

[MindfulCoug]

But co-habitation with equal rights is not the goal of Hamas or Iran. Their goal is to wipe Israel from the map and impose Islamic law on every person.

Neither is the Israel goal.

Unless Israel can make 5 to 7 million Palestinians disappear, it must find some way to coexist with them. Israeli leaders on the center and right continue to avoid facing this fact.

[Jeff Lebowski]

None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

Who needs Tex when we have tooblue? Your original comment was about "Irael" and a "Palestinian state". Now you are narrowing your discussion to Hamas (is anyone here defending Hamas or Islamic Radicalism?). Nice dodge.

[BigPiney]

Why is this complicated? Would it be any different for Canada if it started shooting missiles at U.S. cities?

Wow, thanks Harry Reid. He said the exact same thing on Meet the Press yesterday.

[MindfulCoug]

None of what is stated above changes the fact -- which is the my original point -- that the goal for Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map. This is the root of the problem. You are content to allow your emotions to be manipulated by terrorists, so as to focus on treating the symptoms. Such manipulation permits you to willfully ignore the cause -- the evil that is Islamic radicalism. For every maimed Palestinian innocent shown being rushed to a hospital after Israeli attacks there is an Israeli innocent being rushed to a hospital after a rocket attack or suicide bombing.

Do you remember the last time you updated the suicide bomb attack news?

There has been NO Hamas backed suicide bomb attacks since they took the office. And the home made rockets casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads,while just the current war has left over 531 Palestinians killed and some 2,750 others wounded so far (day10) .

So how did you reach out to "there is one wounded Israeli for one wounded Palestinian" is beyond me.

But anyway ..This is where maimed Palestinian being rushed to .



And this is where maimed Israeli being rushed to.