Thank you board!

[SeattleUte]

Also speaking of dumb, why would anybody in America (President Bush, for example) go to war to achieve "Democracy in the Middle East."

Democracy in that region of the world results in Hamas or the current Iranian leadership. Give me a pro-Western despot over Democracy until the majority of people show some signs that they are something more than ignorant religious fundamentalists.

Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

[tooblue]

A gross oversimplification.

It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

[tooblue]

Its striking coming from a voice of belief.

We do not know respected Jews who are following prophet Moses (peace be upon him) and living their precious religion ,as infidels ,if this is the case by the way.

Ultimately, much of islam is comfortable with the idea of considering infidels and believers of other faiths one and the same.

[MindfulCoug]

Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

The lack of comprehensive and solid terms definition in a way that they cannot be exploited or prevailed is what we need to earn the common ground for a fair discussion.If people preferably should be allowed to define terms ,then its the end of any sort of fair diplomatic conversation.

[MindfulCoug]

Ultimately, much of islam is comfortable with the idea of considering infidels and believers of other faiths one and the same.

I have never earned that comfort level to judge Mormonism ,yet i have been studying your religion for quite a few years.But you seem quite confident in your approach ,yet awfully unfamiliar with Islam .Where does this confidence come from ? It must be art !

[UtahDan]

It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

I know this is very cynical, but I have suggested before, and still believe, that this stalemate with a continual, slow blood letting is as good as it gets in this region. I say this because there aren't any historical examples that I know of where a dispute like this gets solved in a non military way. Think of all the times that peace keeping and non violent compromises have been attempted here and else where and failed.

If Israel had the will and lack of morality that some of the despots of the 20th century had (and that Hamas surely has but is impotent) it would simply empty its borders of Palestinians at the point of a bayonette. That would solve the problem but would involve a massive loss of life. That isn't going to happen. But neither will a peaceful solution ever be achieved either. So, as I say, this may be as good as it gets.

I will say this though, the first time a WMD gets smuggled in and used that will create the will I am talking about.

[MindfulCoug]

Also speaking of dumb, why would anybody in America (President Bush, for example) go to war to achieve "Democracy in the Middle East."

Democracy in that region of the world results in Hamas or the current Iranian leadership. Give me a pro-Western despot over Democracy until the majority of people show some signs that they are something more than ignorant religious fundamentalists.

Whats wrong with backward ,ignorant religious fundamentalists to choose a backward ,ignorant fundamentalists administrator ?

Your Avatar is just priceless ...by the way .

[SoonerCoug]

Your Avatar is just priceless ...by the way .

No one could possibly appreciate that avatar without knowing who Mangino is.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's not ... it's the root of the problem. A fundamental tenant of Hamas's ideology is that Israel must wiped from the map. You can't simply hope that if one helps improve the social economic conditions of the Palestinian people one will be able to contend with the ideology. And that's not to say that all humans everywhere should not be afforded the same freedoms Americans enjoy. But the ideology is the cause and primary stumbling block here. Outside countries must stop treating the symptoms an start attacking the cause ... islamofascist hate.

OK, let's play your game. Do Palestinians have a right to exist (i.e., self-determination and a state)?

[tooblue]

I have never earned that comfort level to judge Mormonism ,yet i have been studying your religion for quite a few years.But you seem quite confident in your approach ,yet awafully unfamiliar with Islam .Where does this confident come from ? It must be art !

All truth of every faith will be circumscribed into one true faith. Some are prepared to wait for the mysteries of God to miraculously bring about this 'inevitability'. Others see themselves as God's instrument and are prepared to bring it to pass through force of law or armed conflict. Until that last sentence it's not entirely clear whether I was speaking of Mormon Christianity or Islam?

Our faiths are not so different except for the fact that we do not send our young men to die as martyrs. We prefer to send them into the world as living examples discipleship.

[CardiacCoug]

Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

I was referring to the goal of democracy in the rest of the Middle East outside of Israel.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Israel is a true democracy. It's hardly despotic. It's head of state recently resigned under political pressure. What more proof do you need. It has faults, but it still is a democracy. No one argues Athenian democracy was not such just because, say, there were slaves who couldn't vote. Israeli democracy is far more advanced than Athenian democaracy, much closer to U.S. democracy on the spectrum. It is by no means despotic.

A slavery disclaimer. Classic.

[tooblue]

OK, let's play your game. Do Palestinians have a right to exist (i.e., self-determination and a state)?

Only if they first recognize Israel's right to exist.

[CardiacCoug]

Whats wrong with backward ,ignorant religious fundamentalists to choose a backward ,ignorant fundamentalists administrator ?

Mindful, I know that there are many intelligent, open-minded Iranians, many of whom are also devout Muslims. I work with some Iranian doctors who have come to America since the Iranian Revolution and have a lot of respect for the greatness of Iranian history and culture, and for the role of properly applied Islam within Iran. But many Americans like President Bush seem to think that a democratically elected government (in Iraq for example) would suddenly decide to offer its people all of the same freedoms people enjoy in Western Europe and that would produce a government that would embrace the US and Israel.

Am I wrong to believe that a majority of Iranians and residents of other countries around the Middle East (obviously outside of Israel) want to live in an Islamic theocracy? One that denies the right of women to drive a car, own property, and have their own job and income? One that requires women to cover their heads and bodies? One that would require the death penalty for Muslims who reject Islamic teachings? One that would favor the annihilation of Israel by any means possible?

When I say backward or ignorant, I'm not referring to any Islamic belief except for the belief that religious laws should be imposed by legal force or by violence on those who don't wish to obey those religious laws. The desire to impose your religious beliefs and practices on others by force or by codification into law is ignorant and backward, whether you're a Mormon, a Southern Baptist, or a Muslim.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Only if they first recognize Israel's right to exist.

Only if Israel first recognizes their right to exist.

You see how helpful this simple logic is?