The Official Thread for Runners

[OhioBlue]

The people who will hurt themselves are semi-athletes or real athletes who are just starting running, and will add on miles too fast, or already established runners who suddenly make a drastic change in shoes without changing their miles.

I now have about 800 miles on my NB MT 100's (about 7 oz), and haven't had a hint of pain or injury. I plan on putting on another 700 or so before I replace them. Oh yeah, and they were $70.

So ER, give me some advice. Since getting hurt and then slowly having gotten back to strength, I've taken that time to change my stride length, cadence, form, and foot strike. I need to see some video of myself before I"m convinced, but I'm pretty sure I'm now striking midfoot, with my feet landing more underneath my hips. My stride is shorter and cadence faster (I used to run to a playlist of songs at about 165 bpm, now that's not natural anymore and I'm up between 175-180 which is where I want to be). Without a coach or an observer, I think the whole package has improved, which should help my economy and help with injury prevention.

So the question is, do I start playing around with shoes? I have run in Asics GT-2150s with no problems. I'm an overpronator but with normal to high arches. the stability and cushioning of that shoe, plus its more narrow foot, have been good for me. But now that my form has changed, I've noticed that the heel-to-toe drop makes it so a midfoot strike feels a bit impeded at times. Plus as a heavier stability shoe, something of lighter weight sounds appealing.

Having already been injured and spending literally months getting back to near where I was, I'm now totally paranoid. I recall you saying you're in a similar boat with regard to potential injury. Do I stick with a shoe I know works, or do I try a shoe with a more minimal heel-toe drop but still decent midfoot cushioning (I believe the NB Minimus will fit that bill, as an example)? Or am I just overthinking?

[ERCougar]

So I ran a 5k in 20:52. Negative split the sucker (6:53, 6:40 and 6:39 mile splits, in that order).

I've known I've been getting faster from both my total mileage and my intervals, but this was a great run. Beating that 5k time, even if not in an actual race, was the holy grail of my personal running.

http://connect.garmin.com/player/78775960

Nice! That's a really sweet time.

[ERCougar]

So ER, give me some advice. Since getting hurt and then slowly having gotten back to strength, I've taken that time to change my stride length, cadence, form, and foot strike. I need to see some video of myself before I"m convinced, but I'm pretty sure I'm now striking midfoot, with my feet landing more underneath my hips. My stride is shorter and cadence faster (I used to run to a playlist of songs at about 165 bpm, now that's not natural anymore and I'm up between 175-180 which is where I want to be). Without a coach or an observer, I think the whole package has improved, which should help my economy and help with injury prevention.

So the question is, do I start playing around with shoes? I have run in Asics GT-2150s with no problems. I'm an overpronator but with normal to high arches. the stability and cushioning of that shoe, plus its more narrow foot, have been good for me. But now that my form has changed, I've noticed that the heel-to-toe drop makes it so a midfoot strike feels a bit impeded at times. Plus as a heavier stability shoe, something of lighter weight sounds appealing.

Having already been injured and spending literally months getting back to near where I was, I'm now totally paranoid. I recall you saying you're in a similar boat with regard to potential injury. Do I stick with a shoe I know works, or do I try a shoe with a more minimal heel-toe drop but still decent midfoot cushioning (I believe the NB Minimus will fit that bill, as an example)? Or am I just overthinking?

I don't know...it's hard to tell you to mess with something that's not broken. The advantages that come to mind are that the shoes will be lighter (i.e. you'll run faster), cheaper, will automatically discourage bad form, and you won't have to replace them so often (only because you won't be so reliant on "cushion"--whatever that is...). The disadvantage is that your miles will take a hit--you really need to treat it like you're starting over. If you're not training for anything, then that's no big deal. Seems like summer in Houston would be the perfect time to make the transition.

Yes, this minimalist stuff is sort of new and unproven, but really, so are stability shoes. After having my only bout with ITBS follow shortly after purchasing new shoes at a running store after videotaping my stride, I started looking into this. I'm pretty convinced at this point. However, I transitioned really slowly, literally treating those barefoot/minimalist miles like a brand new runner--started small and added really slowly. That bout of ITBS (that totally ruined my marathon 3 years ago) scared the crap out of me injury-wise.

[Pheidippides]

I don't know...it's hard to tell you to mess with something that's not broken. The advantages that come to mind are that the shoes will be lighter (i.e. you'll run faster), cheaper, will automatically discourage bad form, and you won't have to replace them so often (only because you won't be so reliant on "cushion"--whatever that is...). The disadvantage is that your miles will take a hit--you really need to treat it like you're starting over. If you're not training for anything, then that's no big deal. Seems like summer in Houston would be the perfect time to make the transition.

Yes, this minimalist stuff is sort of new and unproven, but really, so are stability shoes. After having my only bout with ITBS follow shortly after purchasing new shoes at a running store after videotaping my stride, I started looking into this. I'm pretty convinced at this point. However, I transitioned really slowly, literally treating those barefoot/minimalist miles like a brand new runner--started small and added really slowly. That bout of ITBS (that totally ruined my marathon 3 years ago) scared the crap out of me injury-wise.

I echo this completely. I'm as convinced as ER for the same reasons, but there is an adjustment period to be sure. I have six pair of shoes I run in right now (full disclosure: I'm weartesting one pair) and my true minimalist shoes get the least use because my body isn't ready to crank out 16 miles barefoot. I've talked to many people with VFFs at races and they all tell me it took them a year to get where they are. Longer for long distances.

Also, the ones I have known are slower runners for certain - I smoke them.

So I'm using my VFFs for foot strengthening on a limited basis, as well as form feedback. But when I actually run for speed and time I use the lightest shoe I can get away with and yet still have cushioning. I like the kinvaras and my DS skyspeeds and those are my racing shoes for the near future. I will probably run my next marathon in my Nike LunarGlides or maybe my Newtons.

[OhioBlue]

I don't know...it's hard to tell you to mess with something that's not broken. The advantages that come to mind are that the shoes will be lighter (i.e. you'll run faster), cheaper, will automatically discourage bad form, and you won't have to replace them so often (only because you won't be so reliant on "cushion"--whatever that is...). The disadvantage is that your miles will take a hit--you really need to treat it like you're starting over. If you're not training for anything, then that's no big deal. Seems like summer in Houston would be the perfect time to make the transition.

Yes, this minimalist stuff is sort of new and unproven, but really, so are stability shoes. After having my only bout with ITBS follow shortly after purchasing new shoes at a running store after videotaping my stride, I started looking into this. I'm pretty convinced at this point. However, I transitioned really slowly, literally treating those barefoot/minimalist miles like a brand new runner--started small and added really slowly. That bout of ITBS (that totally ruined my marathon 3 years ago) scared the crap out of me injury-wise.

It's hard to sift through all the propaganda online, but after trying to note themes and paying more particular attention to peer-reviewed articles in scientific journals I've realized....we don't really know much of anything. But the theme in all the 'fad' running styles (pose, GFR, chi, evolution, et al) seems to come down to a few basic components shared across all of them. So I think I've tried to take those to heart.

But yeah it's confusing to read that stability and motion control shoes are indeed successful at controlling overpronation...but controlling overpronation doesn't seem to have any statistically significant impact on injury reduction. In some studies it was quite counterintuitive. All I know is a faster cadence and midfoot strike feel better to me, and more economical/less jarring, so that's another main reason I've transitioned.

Given your advice about breaking in easy, I don't really want to taper my training right now so maybe it's not the time. On the other hand, what if I were to rotate in a pair of Kinvaras or something and only run on them once a week on a shorter, easier run? And then stick with my regular shoes for the rest of the mileage? Could that be a successful way to integrate the more minimalist shoe?

[Pheidippides]

It's hard to sift through all the propaganda online, but after trying to note themes and paying more particular attention to peer-reviewed articles in scientific journals I've realized....we don't really know much of anything. But the theme in all the 'fad' running styles (pose, GFR, chi, evolution, et al) seems to come down to a few basic components shared across all of them. So I think I've tried to take those to heart.

But yeah it's confusing to read that stability and motion control shoes are indeed successful at controlling overpronation...but controlling overpronation doesn't seem to have any statistically significant impact on injury reduction. In some studies it was quite counterintuitive. All I know is a faster cadence and midfoot strike feel better to me, and more economical/less jarring, so that's another main reason I've transitioned.

Given your advice about breaking in easy, I don't really want to taper my training right now so maybe it's not the time. On the other hand, what if I were to rotate in a pair of Kinvaras or something and only run on them once a week on a shorter, easier run? And then stick with my regular shoes for the rest of the mileage? Could that be a successful way to integrate the more minimalist shoe?

I did exactly what you describe as your second option and it worked well. But if you are heavy into training for something specific I'd be careful. I made some major changes to my stride in between training cycles but I've stopped with the form tweaks (even though there are still changes I want to make) until after this next race.

[bluegoose]

So I ran a 5k in 20:52. Negative split the sucker (6:53, 6:40 and 6:39 mile splits, in that order).

[ERCougar]

Given your advice about breaking in easy, I don't really want to taper my training right now so maybe it's not the time. On the other hand, what if I were to rotate in a pair of Kinvaras or something and only run on them once a week on a shorter, easier run? And then stick with my regular shoes for the rest of the mileage? Could that be a successful way to integrate the more minimalist shoe?

I'd agree with niku on his caution--if you're heavy into training right now, don't mess with anything. I think the one day a week thing would be awkward, unless you're already in a pretty neutral shoe.

Sorry for the Houston comment--for some reason, I thought I was responding to Eddie. If I were you, I'd just wait until the winter or early spring. Or just wait until you get hurt and are rehabbing.

I guess running injuries really aren't anything to joke about.

[OhioBlue]

I'd agree with niku on his caution--if you're heavy into training right now, don't mess with anything. I think the one day a week thing would be awkward, unless you're already in a pretty neutral shoe.

Cool...thanks for the help guys.

[Parrot Head]

I think ER described what happened to me. I wouldn't consider myself an athlete, but my cardio was decent and I went from no running to 4 miles in VFFs in about 2 weeks and got a tendonitis flare up that I've never had before. Now, I worry about every little ache because I don't want to sit again now that I'm finally enjoying running.

I've been swamped at work lately, but need to read more of Peter's info running form. I've been trying to change mine, but it feels so comfortable the old way. I actually feel a little more achy when I try to switch to a "correct" form. Is that normal? For you over-pronators, have you changed the way you walk, too, (do you walk with feet pointed outward somewhat?) or just changed your running form?

Finally, having been fortunate enough to enter the world of the Forerunner, do you all use the standard Garmin Training Center software or something else? I read someone online who recommended SportTracks and he said it blows way GTC. (DC Rainmaker)

[Parrot Head]

About a year and a half ago, when I'd been running for about six months, I ran my first race in 14 or 15 years. It was a rather large 5k here in Houston, and I was nervous as could be.

Despite - or maybe because of - my nervousness, I had a superhuman day. Ended up with a 21:40 time, which was way outside of any race pace calculator prediction. I didn't realize it at the time, but I'd set a mark that was going to stand in my own mind as the insurmountable time. In no other run - training or otherwise - had I even broken 22 minutes. And I wouldn't break 22 minutes during the next year, either, despite trying a couple of times. I eventually gave up trying to break it and focused on longer distances.

Until today.

I woke up this morning feeling kind of sleepy and crappy generally, and almost skipped my run altogether. But I got outside and the day was beautiful. I stood on my lawn getting my Garmin ready to go, watching the sun just start to come up, looking at the blue sky, feeling the breeze blow through the uncharacteristically dry and cool air, and all of a sudden I thought what the hell - today let's see what I've got under the hood.

So I ran a 5k in 20:52. Negative split the sucker (6:53, 6:40 and 6:39 mile splits, in that order).

I've known I've been getting faster from both my total mileage and my intervals, but this was a great run. Beating that 5k time, even if not in an actual race, was the holy grail of my personal running.

http://connect.garmin.com/player/78775960

That's awesome! I've got no hope of coming close to that in my 5k this weekend, but I'm looking forward to it nonetheless and you've inspired me even more to beat that 15:00 mile barrier.

Nik, are you taking on the Austin Naked Foot 5k?

[Pheidippides]

That's awesome! I've got no hope of coming close to that in my 5k this weekend, but I'm looking forward to it nonetheless and you've inspired me even more to beat that 15:00 mile barrier.

Nik, are you taking on the Austin Naked Foot 5k?

I may have to try that one out - looks like it's in September, so I have some time to get my VFFs raceworthy. I've never been at 5k pace barefoot, though, so it will take some work.

I was thinking over my run yesterday and realized that I have set a PR in all four of my primary distances in the last three months. And I'm looking at setting another PR in the marathon in June. If the achyness in my left ankle would go away, I'd be in a perfect running sweet spot.

[bluegoose]

Finally, having been fortunate enough to enter the world of the Forerunner, do you all use the standard Garmin Training Center software or something else? I read someone online who recommended SportTracks and he said it blows way GTC. (DC Rainmaker)

I don;t like the Garmin Training center at all. I use Garmin Connect and like it well enough. It is easy to sync and I haven't had any problems with it. I'm always open to something new, so I will have to check out that sport tracks.

[Pheidippides]

I don;t like the Garmin Training center at all. I use Garmin Connect and like it well enough. It is easy to sync and I haven't had any problems with it. I'm always open to something new, so I will have to check out that sport tracks.

I have sporttracks and like it - better functionality - but Garmin connect is great because it has everything online. I never use the garmin training center.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Say, lads, provide some service to your elders by reaching a consensus on GPS tracking software so I'll know what to do. I've been using the Garmin Training Center for a couple of years now, but it's really only a way for me to review what I did on a run or ride, and then I forget about it. I'd like something more useful, and user friendly, but I lack the will and smarts to review carefully the various options. Mrs. PAC has started using ridewithgps.com which can be used for both riding and running. So do I use that, SportTracks, Garmin Connect, or something else? Just tell me what to do, and I shall follow submissively.