Repairs

[BigFatMeanie]

I called a couple places this morning. It looks like today through Monday is emergency service for everyone and I don't want to pay their emergency fees. I also want to get a few quotes on models and installation so I'm not going to do anything about it until Tuesday.

A 40 gallon Rheem gas heater with 6-year tank warranty is $719 at Home Depot. The 12-year warranty tank is $929. The house was built in 2006 and had a 6-year tank warranty. We replaced the heater in 2014, 8 years later, with another 6-year tank warranty heater and again 8 years has gone by. Also, I'm thinking that the installation cost is likely more than the heater itself (i.e. the HVAC/Plumbing companies are not paying full retail for their stuff so I bet they get, say, the 6-year Rheem heater in the $300-$400 range and charge another $1200 on top for installation). So it's only 30% more cost on the heater for double the life-span, and considering the high installation charges, I'm thinking it makes sense to go with the 12-year tank this time. Any thoughts?

[BigFatMeanie]

I'm learning more about water heaters and posting my learning here because I've got nothing better to do today. Like most appliances, the Rheem water heaters sold at Home Depot and other retailers are different from the line sold by big dealers/installers. The "Performance" series is the one you get at Home Depot while the plumbers and other dealers sell the "Professional" series.

It's almost impossible to find pricing on the "Professional" models and that's obviously by design because the dealers all want to charge a fully-installed price with additional services and all that stuff.; however, R.C. Willey has the pricing online for $889 for the 6-year warranty Rheem "Professional" series PROG40-38U RH62 EC1-1. They are an authorized Rheem dealer but they don't do installs at all.

I compared the specs on the PROG40-38U RH62 EC1-1 "Professional" for $889 to the XG40T06EN38U1 "Performance" for $719. The basics in terms of BTU, Rated Capacity, Height, Weight, Vent offset, Uniform Energy Factor, First Hour Rating, Recovery in GPH Rise, etc. are identical in every respect. So, what do you get for the extra $170 bucks?

• The "Professional" has the "glass lining" (I think back in the early 1900s this was made out of porcelain, which is why it's called "glass", but modern heaters use different lining materials)
• The "Professional" has an anti-sediment system which is supposed to make it last longer, but who really knows if it's much more effective.
• The "Professional" has a fancier control system but it essentially does the same functions: fuel shut-off, disables heater under vapor accumulation.
• The "Professional" has an 'enhanced-flow' brass drain valve while the "Performance" doesn't.

I think the first two items probably add some value. The fancier control system and fancier drain valve don't seem like they add much value.

Interestingly, none of the "Professional" models offer a 12-year warranty but you can get the "Performance" model with the 12-year warranty for 30% more - go figure. Of course you can buy "ProtectionPlus" warranties for the "Professional" that extend it to 10 years. That being said, it looks like there are so many exclusions and restrictions on the various warranties that they don't really make sense. For example, the "ProtectionPlus" warranty requires the installation of special parts by a licensed plumber, doesn't cover those parts or the labor, doesn't cover any parts after the installation of the special parts, is non-transferrable with the sale of the home, and requires verification of regular service (i.e. checking/changing the anode valve). Clearly the "ProtectionPlus" warranty is designed to generate revenue for the dealer/installer.

So, based on this research and the fact that I may not even be in this house in another 8 years, I think just going with the Professional model that the dealer sells/installs with the regular 6-year warranty is probably the way to go to get another 8 years out of it.

One thing I am going to have the dealer/installer do is remove and show me the old anode rod before he hauls the leaking one away. We've never had the anode rods changed in our heaters in the past. If the anode rod is obliterated it will mean we should probably replace it more frequently, say once every 2-3 years instead of never.

[Clark Addison]

Time to go tankless! If you are going to spend a bunch of money, may as well spend 2 or 3 times as much!

[BigFatMeanie]

Time to go tankless! If you are going to spend a bunch of money, may as well spend 2 or 3 times as much!

I thought about that. Energy efficiency and space savings are nice, although I really don't care about the space savings that month. Unfortunately, the are also negative tradeoffs:

- We have two 40 gallon water heaters connected in series. The first one in the series does all the work and is lasting about 8 years. The second one in series lasted 14 years and we just replaced it in 2020 so it's probably got another good 10+ years to go. I don't really want to replace both of them.
- Time it takes to get hot water. The heaters are in the basement. Our primary bathroom is on the second floor - one of the longest runs in the house. I suspect that we would have to run quite a bit of water to get to the hot and we live in drought area so Mrs. is more concerned about water savings than energy savings. Going whole hog and doing a recirculator is not going to happen - I believe you have to change all the piping in order to support the recirc, no?

If I was building new, a tankless with recirc would definitely be a consideration.

[Bo Diddley]

We just have the one water heater, and it's done pretty well for us over the years. We'd run out of hot water on Sunday mornings if everyone was taking showers, but I installed a bigger one, and we're now empty nesters with one that came back. I also turned the temperature up a little so the water is hotter. We haven't run out of hot water since--and I take long hot showers.

[Donuthole]

Time to go tankless! If you are going to spend a bunch of money, may as well spend 2 or 3 times as much!

I went tankless earlier this year. Don’t regret it. The space I saved wasn’t quite as much as I had hoped (turns out my water main enters through the concrete pad below the stand my tank sat on) but I did build a little stand over they and now have somewhere to store all my coolers. So I did gain some space. Also, the tankless seems to push the water through faster, as the wait for hot water is about half as long as it was with my tank and recirculating pump.

[Uncle Ted]

I'm learning more about water heaters and posting my learning here because I've got nothing better to do today. Like most appliances, the Rheem water heaters sold at Home Depot and other retailers are different from the line sold by big dealers/installers. The "Performance" series is the one you get at Home Depot while the plumbers and other dealers sell the "Professional" series.

It's almost impossible to find pricing on the "Professional" models and that's obviously by design because the dealers all want to charge a fully-installed price with additional services and all that stuff.; however, R.C. Willey has the pricing online for $889 for the 6-year warranty Rheem "Professional" series PROG40-38U RH62 EC1-1. They are an authorized Rheem dealer but they don't do installs at all.

I compared the specs on the PROG40-38U RH62 EC1-1 "Professional" for $889 to the XG40T06EN38U1 "Performance" for $719. The basics in terms of BTU, Rated Capacity, Height, Weight, Vent offset, Uniform Energy Factor, First Hour Rating, Recovery in GPH Rise, etc. are identical in every respect. So, what do you get for the extra $170 bucks?

• The "Professional" has the "glass lining" (I think back in the early 1900s this was made out of porcelain, which is why it's called "glass", but modern heaters use different lining materials)
• The "Professional" has an anti-sediment system which is supposed to make it last longer, but who really knows if it's much more effective.
• The "Professional" has a fancier control system but it essentially does the same functions: fuel shut-off, disables heater under vapor accumulation.
• The "Professional" has an 'enhanced-flow' brass drain valve while the "Performance" doesn't.

I think the first two items probably add some value. The fancier control system and fancier drain valve don't seem like they add much value.

Interestingly, none of the "Professional" models offer a 12-year warranty but you can get the "Performance" model with the 12-year warranty for 30% more - go figure. Of course you can buy "ProtectionPlus" warranties for the "Professional" that extend it to 10 years. That being said, it looks like there are so many exclusions and restrictions on the various warranties that they don't really make sense. For example, the "ProtectionPlus" warranty requires the installation of special parts by a licensed plumber, doesn't cover those parts or the labor, doesn't cover any parts after the installation of the special parts, is non-transferrable with the sale of the home, and requires verification of regular service (i.e. checking/changing the anode valve). Clearly the "ProtectionPlus" warranty is designed to generate revenue for the dealer/installer.

So, based on this research and the fact that I may not even be in this house in another 8 years, I think just going with the Professional model that the dealer sells/installs with the regular 6-year warranty is probably the way to go to get another 8 years out of it.

One thing I am going to have the dealer/installer do is remove and show me the old anode rod before he hauls the leaking one away. We've never had the anode rods changed in our heaters in the past. If the anode rod is obliterated it will mean we should probably replace it more frequently, say once every 2-3 years instead of never.

Home Depot was having a sale on a hybrid high efficiency (heat pump) last year for $1200+tax... (like this one https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pr...45U0/312741469) I got one and put it in front of a conventional tank one and turned the temp down on it so the new one does all the work. My electric bill took a noticeable drop. In addition I got a $300 tax credit and my garage (where my water heaters are) now stays cool in the summer. I installed it myself with some help from my son with the lifting.

[BigFatMeanie]

Home Depot was having a sale on a hybrid high efficiency (heat pump) last year for $1200+tax... (like this one https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pr...45U0/312741469) I got one and put it in front of a conventional tank one and turned the temp down on it so the new one does all the work. My electric bill took a noticeable drop. In addition I got a $300 tax credit and my garage (where my water heaters are) now stays cool in the summer. I installed it myself with some help from my son with the lifting.

Those heat pump water heaters are pretty cool. Our range, dryer, water heaters, and furnace are all natural gas. The ovens and fridge are electric.

I don't know how to sweat copper piping so I'm reluctant to do the install myself. I want to learn how to do it but I'm not sure I t want my first project to be gas water heaters connected in series in the middle of the winter. I can have one installed on Tuesday but if I try to do it myself and learn how to sweat copper for the first time it's probably going to take me longer than Tuesday. The Mrs. wasn't happy with having to heat water on the stove and take a bucket bath this morning before Christmas church. Yeah, definitely a first-world problem, but still, if the Mrs. isn't happy on Christmas day - ain't nobody happy.

Interestingly, California is trying to prevent new construction from using natural gas. https://www.reuters.com/legal/litiga...gs-2021-08-11/

[Copelius]

Anybody done a roof lately? Trying to get a feel for what would be a good amout to budget. When we did the roof on a house about 1/2 the size of our current home in 09 it was $8500. I know it is going to be quite a bit more just from overhearing conversations throughout the past 14 years. Hoping for less than 30k. Am I in the ballpark for a 3700 sq ft roof on a rambler?

[Bo Diddley]

Anybody done a roof lately? Trying to get a feel for what would be a good amout to budget. When we did the roof on a house about 1/2 the size of our current home in 09 it was $8500. I know it is going to be quite a bit more just from overhearing conversations throughout the past 14 years. Hoping for less than 30k. Am I in the ballpark for a 3700 sq ft roof on a rambler?

My roof is about 2700 sqft, IIRC. I bought materials for about $3500 last fall and paid a roofer $3000. I didn't go with a tear off.

[bluegoose]

Anybody done a roof lately? Trying to get a feel for what would be a good amout to budget. When we did the roof on a house about 1/2 the size of our current home in 09 it was $8500. I know it is going to be quite a bit more just from overhearing conversations throughout the past 14 years. Hoping for less than 30k. Am I in the ballpark for a 3700 sq ft roof on a rambler?

Did mine about 2 years ago. 2,700sq feet for about $25,000, iirc. Northern California rates.

[Pelado]

Did mine about 2 years ago. 2,700sq feet for about $25,000, iirc. Northern California rates.

Ouch.

[Bo Diddley]

Did mine about 2 years ago. 2,700sq feet for about $25,000, iirc. Northern California rates.

I roofed in the Bay Area the summer before getting married. I was mostly paid in cash. It was a pretty good gig.

For the most part, I did wooden shake roof repair. Occasionally composite shingle. I was planning to do my own reroof this past fall, but my back told me to hire someone. Especially when the shingles were delivered on pallets on the ground.

[Copelius]

If the roof wasn't enough, we get to replace the AC now. My wife just texted me and it is 85 in the house. Oh, and I get to put new tires on this afternoon as well. Just when I thought I was getting a little bit ahead.

[Bo Diddley]

If the roof wasn't enough, we get to replace the AC now. My wife just texted me and it is 85 in the house. Oh, and I get to put new tires on this afternoon as well. Just when I thought I was getting a little bit ahead.

Hopefully the AC is an easy fix. I've had to get the HVAC out to replace something that went out. Over the winter I needed a new control board for the furnace side of it. Last summer there was a part outside that wasn't too much--I forget what it was.