General Authority salaries

[Green Monstah]

Why? Just because there aren't millions of bishops?

Think about the numbers of volunteer callings in the church that would correlate with "clergy" or "ministers" in other churches. We're not just talking about Bishops:Pastor:Priest here. Hell, I taught 12-13 year old Sunday School for 2.5 years until last month. Clearly I'm a Youth Minister. Add in all the YM and YW leaders, the Stake Presidency, the High Council, the GD teachers, the Primary Presidency (we can leave out primary teachers for this) and you've clearly eclipsed "millions" of unpaid clergy.

Persons who would likely be considered clergy by other churches:

Bishop and his counselors (3)
EQP (1) (assume 3)
HPGL (1) (assume 3)
RSP'y (3)
YM/YW P'y and advisors: (12)
Primary P'y (3)

Ward Level conservative estimate: 27 per ward.

As of 12/31/17, there are 30,304 congregations. There's no way that all wards/branches have the number of "clergy" we include above, but for the sake of being conservative, I'll go ahead and assume 27 per congregation.

27*30304=818208, which is quite a bit less than multiple millions (which I interpret to be 2,000,000 or more, but some may mean 1,000,001 or more.

I think that's stretching it.

[falafel]

Persons who would likely be considered clergy by other churches:

Bishop and his counselors (3)
EQP (1) (assume 3)
HPGL (1) (assume 3)
RSP'y (3)
YM/YW P'y and advisors: (12)
Primary P'y (3)

Ward Level conservative estimate: 27 per ward.

As of 12/31/17, there are 30,304 congregations. There's no way that all wards/branches have the number of "clergy" we include above, but for the sake of being conservative, I'll go ahead and assume 27 per congregation.

27*30304=818208, which is quite a bit less than multiple millions (which I interpret to be 2,000,000 or more, but some may mean 1,000,001 or more.

I think that's stretching it.

You want to talk about stretching it? Okay, let's keep it at 1 million (or even 800k). That figure still dwarfs the 200-300 "paid" clergy in the church. So its still a very strange bone to pick when .000375% of all LDS clergy could be considered "paid" (.000375% =300/800000). Saying the LDS church actually has a paid clergy is way beyond stretching it.

[creekster]

Persons who would likely be considered clergy by other churches:

Bishop and his counselors (3)
EQP (1) (assume 3)
HPGL (1) (assume 3)
RSP'y (3)
YM/YW P'y and advisors: (12)
Primary P'y (3)

Ward Level conservative estimate: 27 per ward.

As of 12/31/17, there are 30,304 congregations. There's no way that all wards/branches have the number of "clergy" we include above, but for the sake of being conservative, I'll go ahead and assume 27 per congregation.

27*30304=818208, which is quite a bit less than multiple millions (which I interpret to be 2,000,000 or more, but some may mean 1,000,001 or more.

I think that's stretching it.

so lets say you are correct and the ratio is a couple hundred vs. 818,000. do you think you are winning this argument? Or do you just think you rubbed Falafel's nose in a rather inconsequential exaggeration?

[Green Monstah]

Okay, let's keep it at 1 million (or even 800k). That figure still dwarfs the 200-300 "paid" clergy in the church. So its still a very strange bone to pick when .000375% of all LDS clergy could be considered "paid" (.000375% =300/800000)

Except they're being paid in the 80-90th percentile of a first world country by the tithes of some people who can't make ends meet. My point is that I can see why a person paying tithes and struggling to survive may be bothered by this fact. Seems like common sense.

[Green Monstah]

so lets say you are correct and the ratio is a couple hundred vs. 818,000. do you think you are winning this argument? Or do you just think you rubbed Falafel's nose in a rather inconsequential exaggeration?

If you'd read the thread, you'd realize I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of the practice. If it's "no big deal," then why not disclose it?

[creekster]

Except they're being paid in the 80-90th percentile of a first world country by the tithes of some people who can't make ends meet. My point is that I can see why a person paying tithes and struggling to survive may be bothered by this fact. Seems like common sense.

Within my experience it is those faithful members who struggle to make ends meet who will be least bothered by this. They tend to have a much more eternal perspective on wealth and materialism than do middle class members of a church. IMO, the most likely to be bothered by these facts are those who are already disaffected.

[creekster]

If you'd read the thread, you'd realize I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of the practice. If it's "no big deal," then why not disclose it?

then what is the purpose of pickin gat the million vs 818000 nit?

[Green Monstah]

then what is the purpose of pickin gat the million vs 818000 nit?

I disagree that there are millions of unpaid clergy within the LDS Church.

[creekster]

If you'd read the thread, you'd realize I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of the practice. If it's "no big deal," then why not disclose it?

I admit I havent read the whole thread. If I missed something then I am sorry. But reasons for non-disclosure dont seem to be featured in your responses to Falafel.

[Omaha 680]

Except they're being paid in the 80-90th percentile of a first world country by the tithes of some people who can't make ends meet. My point is that I can see why a person paying tithes and struggling to survive may be bothered by this fact. Seems like common sense.

It would be interesting to know how much of church operating funds are actually paid by those who "can't make ends meet". My guess is if it were possible to know, church donation revenue would look much like federal income tax revenue, where the top 10% of earners pay nearly 3/4 of the revenue. We'll never know, though.

I have no problem with a paid general clergy. I just wish we still had paid local janitors.

[creekster]

I disagree that there are millions of unpaid clergy within the LDS Church.

but admit there are 818000+. So this is a math issue? AN estimation issue? The fact of 2,000,000 vs 818,000 is meanginless to you for any purpose other than the estimation error? Your only question is why the allowance/salary isnt disclosed? I can be dense, and I am not reading the thread, but your goal here eludes me.

[Green Monstah]

Within my experience it is those faithful members who struggle to make ends meet who will be least bothered by this. They tend to have a much more eternal perspective on wealth and materialism than do middle class members of a church. IMO, the most likely to be bothered by these facts are those who are already disaffected.

I don't understand the defensiveness. If it's no big deal, why jump in?

[Green Monstah]

but admit there are 818000+. So this is a math issue? AN estimation issue? The fact of 2,000,000 vs 818,000 is meanginless to you for any purpose other than the estimation error? Your only question is why the allowance/salary isnt disclosed? I can be dense, and I am not reading the thread, but your goal here eludes me.

Then don't worry about it.

[falafel]

Except they're being paid in the 80-90th percentile of a first world country by the tithes of some people who can't make ends meet. My point is that I can see why a person paying tithes and struggling to survive may be bothered by this fact. Seems like common sense.

Here's the real fact: .000375% (three-tenths of one percent) of all LDS clergy receive an allowance (get paid if you want) for working 80 hours a week and leaving much more lucrative jobs in the private sector, sacrificing family and retirement time.

Stated by the inverse: 99.999625% of the LDS church Clergy (not members, but those we identified as "clergy") are not paid. If someone is bothered by this number, they are an idiot looking for something to be bothered by.

[Green Monstah]

It would be interesting to know how much of church operating funds are actually paid by those who "can't make ends meet". My guess is if it were possible to know, church donation revenue would look much like federal income tax revenue, where the top 10% of earners pay nearly 3/4 of the revenue. We'll never know, though.

I have no problem with a paid general clergy. I just wish we still had paid local janitors.

I don't have a problem with paid local clergy. I think it would benefit the church quite a bit. I suppose the concept of priestcraft from the BOM probably makes that impossible.