Originally posted by All-American
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Whistleblower - Ensign Peak Advisors
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"The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane
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Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?
The next couple questions are good but I don’t think anyone knows the answers. Maybe the best comparison are the mega churches in the South where tithes are expected but not “enforced” like in our church. Those churches do very well (large buildings and expansive grounds) in the locations that are wealthy but they don’t do nearly as well in poor areas. Which, IMO, is the beauty of how the LDS church operates. The tithing concept makes it possible for poor areas to have temples and churches that they otherwise wouldn’t have if there was more local control over tithing or offerings.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf
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Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?
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Originally posted by Bo Diddley View Post
Exactly. I think once a dollar amount reaches a certain amount, many are unable to wrap their heads around it and truly understand what it represents to a large organization.
Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?
What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating.
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Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
Yup. $100B is less than half the market cap of my current employer and wouldn't even make the top 100 companies in the world. My employer has ~20K employees and operations in about 30 countries around the world. The church operates at at least 5X that scale around the world.
Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?
What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
Yup. $100B is less than half the market cap of my current employer and wouldn't even make the top 100 companies in the world. My employer has ~20K employees and operations in about 30 countries around the world. The church operates at at least 5X that scale around the world.
Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?
What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating.Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.
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Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?
I sincerely believe that when church leaders urge members to pay tithing, budgets and financing operations are a secondary concern to the main point. Tithing is an emblem of devotion. The church would keep asking for it even if it had all the money in the world.τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν
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Originally posted by All-American View Post
You’re not going to like this response.
I sincerely believe that when church leaders urge members to pay tithing, budgets and financing operations are a secondary concern to the main point. Tithing is an emblem of devotion. The church would keep asking for it even if it had all the money in the world."...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
"You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
- SeattleUte
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Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
I get the devotion thing and I have no qualms with the church asking for money as a sign of faith, no matter how rich it is. Most members don't mind donating their money to the church. But I would love for the church to separate the donation amount from exaltation.
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Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
marking market cap against cash and marketable securities on hand is not a comparison that makes any sense at all
How about we compare Ensign Peak with the largest financial firms with discretionary assets under management? The church's $100B under Ensign Peak wouldn't even crack the top 150 in the world for discretionary assets under management. Blackrock, with > $6 trillion in discretionary AUM sits in the number one spot on that list, and they have another $2+ trillion in their ETFs.
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I think it’s a bit disingenuous to feign incredulity at a charitable organization hoarding 12 figures of assets. It may be defensible, but it doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to figure out why some folks are left scratching their heads and wondering whether this charitable organization is merely semi-charitable.Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
"Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson
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Originally posted by Green Monstah View PostI think it’s a bit disingenuous to feign incredulity at a charitable organization hoarding 12 figures of assets. It may be defensible, but it doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to figure out why some folks are left scratching their heads and wondering whether this charitable organization is merely semi-charitable.Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.
"The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
Yeah, I admit is an extremely rough comparison, it was meant to convey a sense that $100B in cash and marketable securities isn't that crazy for an organization the size and scale of the church.
How about we compare Ensign Peak with the largest financial firms with discretionary assets under management? The church's $100B under Ensign Peak wouldn't even crack the top 150 in the world for discretionary assets under management. Blackrock, with > $6 trillion in discretionary AUM sits in the number one spot on that list, and they have another $2+ trillion in their ETFs.
i don’t have a moral opinion on the subject, but to pretend like it’s some ordinary course thing for a church to sit on $100b of cash and securities (before talking about the hundreds of billions worth of real estate) is just silly.Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.
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Originally posted by falafel View Post
Its a church, not a straight up charity.Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
"Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson
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Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
I'm not sure if that makes the 100 bill rainy day fund more or less defensible. I'm happy for many of the charitable things the church does, including deeply subsidizing higher education. But I think it can receive even greater dividends (and not the cash type) by making greater annual investments in alleviating human suffering.Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.
"The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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