Whistleblower - Ensign Peak Advisors

[Non Sequitur]

The answer to that last question is not as long as you might think.

$100B is 2.5 Harvards of endowment. It would be pretty nicely sized if it funded nothing but the BYUs. It looks a bit more modest if was for the entire CES. And CES isn’t even the largest expense the church has.

I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?

[Moliere]

I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?

The church requires a lot more to be admitted into a temple than someone paying 10% of their income. So I’m not sure the first question is answerable in how it’s phrased.

The next couple questions are good but I don’t think anyone knows the answers. Maybe the best comparison are the mega churches in the South where tithes are expected but not “enforced” like in our church. Those churches do very well (large buildings and expansive grounds) in the locations that are wealthy but they don’t do nearly as well in poor areas. Which, IMO, is the beauty of how the LDS church operates. The tithing concept makes it possible for poor areas to have temples and churches that they otherwise wouldn’t have if there was more local control over tithing or offerings.


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[YOhio]

I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?

They'd have to put locks in the changing room lockers if they start letting God robbers in.

[BigFatMeanie]

Exactly. I think once a dollar amount reaches a certain amount, many are unable to wrap their heads around it and truly understand what it represents to a large organization.

Yup. $100B is less than half the market cap of my current employer and wouldn't even make the top 100 companies in the world. My employer has ~20K employees and operations in about 30 countries around the world. The church operates at at least 5X that scale around the world.

Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?

What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yup. $100B is less than half the market cap of my current employer and wouldn't even make the top 100 companies in the world. My employer has ~20K employees and operations in about 30 countries around the world. The church operates at at least 5X that scale around the world.

Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?

What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating.

I was under the impression that much of that fund came from ROI.

[old_gregg]

Yup. $100B is less than half the market cap of my current employer and wouldn't even make the top 100 companies in the world. My employer has ~20K employees and operations in about 30 countries around the world. The church operates at at least 5X that scale around the world.

Another mistake folks make when they take interest in church finances is that they assume that the entire $100B, and all other monies associated with the church in any way, came from tithing. In reality, they have no idea how money is allocated and no idea what the source of the money is. Did it come from tithing or from the for-profit businesses run by the church?

What's more interesting to me than $100B under the management of Ensign Peak are the various corporations and operational structures of the church beyond the Corporation of the President and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. This includes entities such as Intellectual Reserve, Property Reserve, AgReserves, City Creek Reserve and I'm sure there are more but I don't know their names and don't want to pay the fees to go digging for them on the state's corporation search site. I find the organization and operation of those entities fascinating.

marking market cap against cash and marketable securities on hand is not a comparison that makes any sense at all

[All-American]

I'm cynical as hell, so I'll go ahead and ask it. How much does the Church spend on building temples, and why is the price of admission to those temples contingent on its members surrendering 10% of their earnings to Church? What would happen to the business model if the Church stopped requiring a full tithe for the privilege of doing temple work? What fuels what?

You’re not going to like this response.

I sincerely believe that when church leaders urge members to pay tithing, budgets and financing operations are a secondary concern to the main point. Tithing is an emblem of devotion. The church would keep asking for it even if it had all the money in the world.

[Northwestcoug]

You’re not going to like this response.

I sincerely believe that when church leaders urge members to pay tithing, budgets and financing operations are a secondary concern to the main point. Tithing is an emblem of devotion. The church would keep asking for it even if it had all the money in the world.

I get the devotion thing and I have no qualms with the church asking for money as a sign of faith, no matter how rich it is. Most members don't mind donating their money to the church. But I would love for the church to separate the donation amount from exaltation.

[Omaha 680]

I get the devotion thing and I have no qualms with the church asking for money as a sign of faith, no matter how rich it is. Most members don't mind donating their money to the church. But I would love for the church to separate the donation amount from exaltation.

The amount is separate. It's the percentage that counts!

[BigFatMeanie]

marking market cap against cash and marketable securities on hand is not a comparison that makes any sense at all

Yeah, I admit is an extremely rough comparison, it was meant to convey a sense that $100B in cash and marketable securities isn't that crazy for an organization the size and scale of the church.

How about we compare Ensign Peak with the largest financial firms with discretionary assets under management? The church's $100B under Ensign Peak wouldn't even crack the top 150 in the world for discretionary assets under management. Blackrock, with > $6 trillion in discretionary AUM sits in the number one spot on that list, and they have another $2+ trillion in their ETFs.

[Green Monstah]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to feign incredulity at a charitable organization hoarding 12 figures of assets. It may be defensible, but it doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to figure out why some folks are left scratching their heads and wondering whether this charitable organization is merely semi-charitable.

[falafel]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to feign incredulity at a charitable organization hoarding 12 figures of assets. It may be defensible, but it doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to figure out why some folks are left scratching their heads and wondering whether this charitable organization is merely semi-charitable.

Its a church, not a straight up charity.

[old_gregg]

Yeah, I admit is an extremely rough comparison, it was meant to convey a sense that $100B in cash and marketable securities isn't that crazy for an organization the size and scale of the church.

How about we compare Ensign Peak with the largest financial firms with discretionary assets under management? The church's $100B under Ensign Peak wouldn't even crack the top 150 in the world for discretionary assets under management. Blackrock, with > $6 trillion in discretionary AUM sits in the number one spot on that list, and they have another $2+ trillion in their ETFs.

bad comparison. lps give money to investment advisers for the purpose of generating a return. can talk all you want about tithing’s separation from the church’s profit-generating enterprises, but cash is perfectly fungible—the security provided by tithing inflows frees up the church to hold cash/securities and use cash for noncharitable purposes. donors do the same thing with private foundation endowments (and the church is sitting on 3x the harvard endowment). a better (but still imperfect) comparison is against aum of family offices. the church is #1 or #2 on that list.

i don’t have a moral opinion on the subject, but to pretend like it’s some ordinary course thing for a church to sit on $100b of cash and securities (before talking about the hundreds of billions worth of real estate) is just silly.

[Green Monstah]

Its a church, not a straight up charity.

I'm not sure if that makes the 100 bill rainy day fund more or less defensible. I'm happy for many of the charitable things the church does, including deeply subsidizing higher education. But I think it can receive even greater dividends (and not the cash type) by making greater annual investments in alleviating human suffering.

[falafel]

I'm not sure if that makes the 100 bill rainy day fund more or less defensible. I'm happy for many of the charitable things the church does, including deeply subsidizing higher education. But I think it can receive even greater dividends (and not the cash type) by making greater annual investments in alleviating human suffering.

The point I was making is that it doesn't exist solely to raise money to alleviate human suffering. It has real costs and real responsibilities to its members and the communities in which it operates, which cost real money. Channeling og here a bit, but you are making some silly comparisons here.