Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[creekster]

anything≠everything

Very insightful. Thank you.

[old_gregg]

Very insightful. Thank you.

it’s a premise to your dismissal of moliere and wuaps arguments. brevity≠wrong

[Jeff Lebowski]

I didn't read what Wuap said but assume there was a lot of hysterics, hyperbole, and self-aggrandizement.

He did start one post by reminding us he knows six languages! Bless his heart.

[creekster]

it’s a premise to your dismissal of moliere and wuaps arguments. brevity≠wrong

Not my premise.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Not to individuals, to institutions, like say, the MTC. You can hide behind the old, "When Samuel ordained Saul, he didn't know he wouldn't sacrifice the spoils of war" argument, but either God has his foreknowledge from omniscience, or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, we're talking some serious limits on divine omnipotence that don't jibe with our theology (e.g., a god who risks, a la John Sanders) or attempt to find a way to jibe with our theology like Blake Ostler did with his god who can know past and future, but not the choice that we'll make in the present (nothing really original to Ostler's ideas that Gersonides didn't already imagine out 800 years before him; Gersonides said that God imposed that on himself; Ostler says that God CANNOT know).

I fail to see what that has to do with the question at hand.

Did God know what happened at the MTC? Sure.

Did the top-level church leaders now what happened because they are seers and they are supposed to "see" things? No.

Why would God not tell them? I don't know. But I don't think that is how things have ever worked. God has never seen fit to protect us from all bad things or the consequences of our own mistakes.

[wuapinmon]

He did start one post by reminding us he knows six languages! Bless his heart.

I was clearly self-deprecating by quoting the uncoolest character in Star Wars, C3PO--and it was "six million" not "six."

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was clearly self-deprecating by quoting the uncoolest character in Star Wars, C3PO--and it was "six million" not "six."

Oh sorry. My bad.

Come on, wuap. Uncoolest character is Jar Jar Binks.

[Moliere]

anything≠everything

Exactly.

I expect a seer to know they are being defrauded when spending church funds to buy fake manuscripts.

I’d expect one to know about Bishop when he’s called to be president of the MTC. That’s a calling extended by the first presidency. Maybe they are too tied up in administrative minutiae to actually take the time to see.


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[Donuthole]

Exactly.

I expect a seer to know they are being defrauded when spending church funds to buy fake manuscripts.

I’d expect one to know about Bishop when he’s called to be president of the MTC. That’s a calling extended by the first presidency. Maybe they are too tied up in administrative minutiae to actually take the time to see.

I know JL already alluded to it, but it's worth mentioning again: this might be your most Dehlinish take yet.

[falafel]

Exactly.

I expect a seer to know they are being defrauded when spending church funds to buy fake manuscripts.

I’d expect one to know about Bishop when he’s called to be president of the MTC. That’s a calling extended by the first presidency. Maybe they are too tied up in administrative minutiae to actually take the time to see.


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Really? Why? I'd expect a seer to see things that have a direct bearing on the doctrine of the church. I'm surprised you think how the church spends some of its money is included in the "mandatory seer" category; but then again, you are an accountant.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Exactly.

I expect a seer to know they are being defrauded when spending church funds to buy fake manuscripts.

I’d expect one to know about Bishop when he’s called to be president of the MTC. That’s a calling extended by the first presidency. Maybe they are too tied up in administrative minutiae to actually take the time to see.

I rest my case. Once you start going down that rabbit hole, you have to go all in on the church leaders = omniscient logic. Because you can always find an endless sequence of comparables and litmus tests for "why doesn't God intervene?".

If A, then why not B? If B, then why not C? ...

This is an old debate. The last few chapters of the book of Job (parts normally skipped in Gospel Doctrine) include a fascinating response from God telling Job to stop trying to expect fairness or consistency from God. God allows bad things to happen. He has his reasons and they are a mystery. End of story.

[old_gregg]

this thread is getting down to the sinew running through the theological discussions here as of late: what does it mean to be ordained as a prophet, seer and revelator? it’s a definitional game. if the standard is “they sometimes say smart things,” then surely all ordained prophets and general authorities meet the definition (though it is problematic for ways previously discussed: what’s the point of having a mouthpiece of god when that person says demonstrably wrong things when purporting to speak on behalf of god? it is the brigham young problem. if i’m sorting out for myself kernels of truth from things purported to be truth, maybe my energy is better spent seeking truth elsewhere.).

if it’s anything more than that, not sure anyone has or can suffice. but, we’ve had this discussion and not sure continuing to have it will be fruitful.

[Uncle Ted]

I rest my case. Once you start going down that rabbit hole, you have to go all in on the church leaders = omniscient logic. Because you can always find an endless sequence of comparables and litmus tests for "why doesn't God intervene?".

If A, then why not B? If B, then why not C? ...

This is an old debate. The last few chapters of the book of Job (parts normally skipped in Gospel Doctrine) include a fascinating response from God telling Job to stop trying to expect fairness or consistency from God. God allows bad things to happen. He has his reasons and they are a mystery. End of story.

Like back in Noah's time when God didn't stop the rain and the floods from killing all those people.

[Jeff Lebowski]

this thread is getting down to the sinew running through the theological discussions here as of late: what does it mean to be ordained as a prophet, seer and revelator? it’s a definitional game. if the standard is “they sometimes say smart things,” then surely all ordained prophets and general authorities meet the definition (though it is problematic for ways previously discussed: what’s the point of having a mouthpiece of god when that person says demonstrably wrong things when purporting to speak on behalf of god? it is the brigham young problem. if i’m sorting out for myself kernels of truth from things purported to be truth, maybe my energy is better spent seeking truth elsewhere.).

if it’s anything more than that, not sure anyone has or can suffice. but, we’ve had this discussion and not sure continuing to have it will be fruitful.

Yeah, good old Brigham Young.

“I am afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation”. - Brigham Young

“The greatest fear I have is that the people of this Church will accept what we say as the will of the Lord without first praying about it and getting the witness within their own hearts that what we say is the word of the Lord.” - Brigham Young

[wuapinmon]

I fail to see what that has to do with the question at hand.

Did God know what happened at the MTC? Sure.

Did the top-level church leaders now what happened because they are seers and they are supposed to "see" things? No.

Why would God not tell them? I don't know. But I don't think that is how things have ever worked. God has never seen fit to protect us from all bad things or the consequences of our own mistakes.

The MTC is a major calling, one that is "inspired" and prayed over by the Brethren, maybe even by the prophet. They are all sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. If the calling is therefore inspired, it is not "our own mistake" to put a predatory leader in charge of the missionary training center. The fault lies with god or his servants who should have seen what was going to happen. Either the calling was inspired or they were not inspired. You can't have it both ways. So, if the fault rests not with god, they are not inspired, and they're just men left to their own devices, except when god decides to inspire them, which is basically never, as creekster admits. God, however, tells us that against none is his wrath kindled (D&C 59:21) except those who confess not his hand in all things, which would have to include, sadly, trying to rape a sister missionary in the basement of His training center in Provo. I'm sure if we torture that scenario enough, we can see how God's hand was there, right? We can see how, somehow, His purposes were fulfilled by Elder Asay not doing something? By Bishop being left in his calling? That scripture is doctrine. It cannot be denied and remain doctrinal. Other things can be, but that verse is there in black and white.

So, either we've got a God who is being far too coy with us, his children.