Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[ERCougar]

That's funny. Not your most compelling argument.

Nor yours. But I guess I got a laugh?

Why? Do you have a problem with the standards of evidence and proof in the legal context? Do you think they are too rigorous for this context?

No,not in the legal context, which is why I have nothing to say about what this man's legal status should be. But the church has never adopted this standard--funny time to start now.

Awful things were done by a prominent Mormon, welcome back ER! Has Byron stopped by yet?

Ha, guilty, I guess. I actually have refrained from saying much online because I think most people realize this whole situation is messed up and don't need to be told (and doing so usually just brings out weird and ugly defensiveness). But then sometimes I just can't bite my tongue.

Anyway, realizing that none of us know all the facts, here's what I think happened. This was brought to the Church's attention in January. They were horrified at a really bad situation. They had it investigated and came to the conclusion that this guy wasn't going to hurt anyone else and bringing it to light would only hurt his family, and leave him with his worst moments as the definition of his life. So what good does it do? So they came to a private settlement with the woman, probably changed up some internal policies, and figured the best thing for all involved would be for this to go away. I'm not even sure they're wrong about that and frankly, I admire the concern for the man's family and even for the victim, who apparently didn't want this leaked.

Now that it's out though, why not own that decision? Well, because it looks bad, particularly given recent events, even if it was in the best interest of all the private parties. Still, I think they should have owned it. They investigated, sure, but they sat on pretty damning evidence.

And now? He'll have a court and be publicly excommunicated within a few weeks, as the "lengthy investigation" will very coincidentally conclude at the same time this was brought to light. One must protect the good name after all. The concern about image is obviously not unusual for a large organization, but not very praiseworthy either.

I kind of hate wikileaks, mormonleaks, etc and the public mob justice they too often lead to. I think this leak hurt all of the individuals involved, and only one of them maybe deserved it. This whole situation sucks. Believe it or not, I take absolutely no pleasure in this. None.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That is one my my favourite passages in scripture. Of course, we lack context and therefore are unable to fully appreciate the whole circumstances which lead to Christ's judgment.

It's reasonable to discern that the scribes and Pharisees left the presence of Christ so readily, not merely because they themselves were hypocrites and adulterers, but also because it was they, wanting to 'tempt' Christ who had put the woman in the compromising situation in the first place. Perhaps she was an unwitting pawn?

You seem to be trying to parse the story to fit your current paradigm. Why not take it at face value?

It is a beautiful parable. A simple story and we identify both with the pharisees and the woman. We all judge others and we all feel unworthy and in need of compassion and mercy at times.

[All-American]

You seem to be trying to parse the story to fit your current paradigm. Why not take it at face value?

It is a beautiful parable. A simple story and we identify both with the pharisees and the woman. We all judge others and we all feel unworthy and in need of compassion and mercy at times.

Seriously. If you're going to take issue with it, you should just settle on "somebody just inserted it into the narrative and it probably never happened."

[PaloAltoCougar]

Reading through the transcript paints a pretty damning picture. The Bishop family shares their side of the story. ...

The Bishop family defense is pretty weak, beginning with the accuser's story about the basement storage room with the various accoutrements. If the room exists at all, what innocent explanation is there for her knowledge of this? But I'm curious if no one else ever saw President Bishop escort sister missionaries into said room.

[ERCougar]

Try to be consistent.

He's right though. You keep bringing up addiction, but that's really beside the point. I have zero interest in eternally condemning the man. I have no idea what demons he was fighting. I think in a hundred years, as we understand the brain better, we will realize that people are much less free than we thought they were (continuing the trend over the last several hundred years)--we're all bags of chemicals. Sam Harris talks about free will not existing. I'm not sure that's true, but it does focus our attention on the things that are important, which is not how many lashes this guy deserves, but how to prevent it from happening again, what mechanisms are effective at deterring other bags of chemicals from doing the same thing, and how to protect innocent people. So talk of addiction or guilt or atonement is just distracting.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Nor yours. But I guess I got a laugh?

Which argument of mine are you referring to?

Arguing how something is perceived by some anonymous "others" doesn't move my needle at all. Especially in the era of social media outrage culture. That just struck me as funny. Carry on.

No,not in the legal context, which is why I have nothing to say about what this man's legal status should be. But the church has never adopted this standard--funny time to start now.


Ha, guilty, I guess. I actually have refrained from saying much online because I think most people realize this whole situation is messed up and don't need to be told (and doing so usually just brings out weird and ugly defensiveness). But then sometimes I just can't bite my tongue.

Anyway, realizing that none of us know all the facts, here's what I think happened. This was brought to the Church's attention in January. They were horrified at a really bad situation. They had it investigated and came to the conclusion that this guy wasn't going to hurt anyone and bringing it to light would only hurt his family, and leave him with his worst moments as the definition of his life. So what good does it do? So they came to a private settlement with the woman, probably changed up some internal policies, and figured the best thing for all involved would be for this to go away. I'm not even sure they're wrong about that and frankly, I admire the concern for the man's family and even for the victim, who apparently didn't want this leaked.

Now that it's out though, why not own that decision? Well, because it looks bad, particularly given recent events, even if it was in the best interest of all the private parties. Still, I think they should have owned it. They investigated, sure, but they sat on pretty damning evidence.

And now? He'll have a court and be publicly excommunicated within a few weeks, as the lengthy investigation will very coincidentally conclude at the same time it was brought to light. One must protect the good name after all. The concern about image is obviously not unusual for a large organization, but not very praiseworthy either.

I kind of hate wikileaks, mormonleaks, etc and the public mob justice they too often lead to. I think this leak hurt all of the individuals involved, and only one of them maybe deserved it. This whole situation sucks.

I don't think that scenario is likely at all. I have some friends who work for Kirton & McConkie and they work full time on things like this. We have discussed a number of ugly cases they have dealt with. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that they are dumb enough to think that this would just blow over. Far more likely that there are other women involved and this is a complex case that will take a while to resolve.

[snowcat]

The Bishop family defense is pretty weak, beginning with the accuser's story about the basement storage room with the various accoutrements. If the room exists at all, what innocent explanation is there for her knowledge of this? But I'm curious if no one else ever saw President Bishop escort sister missionaries into said room.

I think there is a good chance more victims will come forward.

[Pelado]

The Bishop family defense is pretty weak, beginning with the accuser's story about the basement storage room with the various accoutrements. If the room exists at all, what innocent explanation is there for her knowledge of this? But I'm curious if no one else ever saw President Bishop escort sister missionaries into said room.

They seem to be going with the "if you were 85 years old and on unnamed medications, you probably would have thought you used to have a basement room at the MTC with which to seduce and/or sexually assault the sister missionaries, too" defense.

[ERCougar]

Which argument of mine are you referring to?

Arguing how something is perceived by some anonymous "others" doesn't move my needle at all. Especially in the era of social media outrage culture. That just struck me as funny. Carry on.

I don't think that scenario is likely at all. I have some friends who work for Kirton & McConkie and they work full time on things like this. We have discussed a number of ugly cases they have dealt with. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that they are dumb enough to think that this would just blow over. Far more likely that there are other women involved and this is a complex case that will take a while to resolve.

I don't care too much what random anonymous people think either, other than it provides a nice gauge as to what detached people would assume about this. Yours is not the conclusion most reasonable people would come to. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but I think you are. I guess we'll see soon.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Seriously. If you're going to take issue with it, you should just settle on "somebody just inserted it into the narrative and it probably never happened."

Yes! My favorite late addition to the new testament. God bless some anonymous scribe in 200 AD.

[falafel]

He's right though. You keep bringing up addiction, but that's really beside the point. I have zero interest in eternally condemning the man. I have no idea what demons he was fighting. I think in a hundred years, as we understand the brain better, we will realize that people are much less free than we thought they were (continuing the trend over the last several hundred years)--we're all bags of chemicals. Sam Harris talks about free will not existing. I'm not sure that's true, but it does focus our attention on the things that are important, which is not how many lashes this guy deserves, but how to prevent it from happening again, what mechanisms are effective at deterring other bags of chemicals from doing the same thing, and how to protect innocent people. So talk of addiction or guilt or atonement is just distracting.

This is exactly what I have been talking about.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't care too much what random anonymous people think either, other than it provides a nice gauge as to what detached people would assume about this. Yours is not the conclusion most reasonable people would come to. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but I think you are. I guess we'll see soon.

i.e., argumentum ad populum

That was one of SU's favorite tactics in a debate. Why not just state your case and rely on the strength of your argument?

[Jarid in Cedar]

...

[Northwestcoug]

You seem to be trying to parse the story to fit your current paradigm. Why not take it at face value?

It is a beautiful parable. A simple story and we identify both with the pharisees and the woman. We all judge others and we all feel unworthy and in need of compassion and mercy at times.

Hey I like that. I don't think I've ever heard the identification with the Pharisees angle before. I like the cut of your Christian jib!

[Eddie]

My second year up at Ricks I was in the SS Presidency and in charge of the rolls. I invited the SS secretary over to my apartment to go over the rolls and get everything in order. We ended up at the Sand Hills that night and made out. I'm hoping this doesn't come back to bite me.

So - we have YOU to thank for current edition of the CHOI.

12.2.4
Ward Sunday School Secretary
If needed, the bishopric may call a brother to serve as ward Sunday School secretary.

Something tells me there's a little less making out going on within current SS presidencies. I recognize this this change may not eliminate ALL making out, however.