Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[Bo Diddley]

For the record, I am looking forward to General Conference this weekend. I don't think it's just words of advice from uninspired people. I've recently downloaded all of October's conference talks, and listen to them on my 50 minute commute home from work. The more I listen to them, the more sense they make, and the more inspired they seem to me. It's really made quite a difference on my outlook on life.

[Bo Diddley]

This where I start pulling out my hair. You don't want a prophet, you want a fortune teller. I don't believe it has ever worked that way, nor should it. Roll off a few magic tricks and there is no longer any role for faith.

I'm with Lebowski here.

There would be no role for faith if there were any meaningful evidence.

In fact, I'll take it a step further: God needs to keep us guessing or else we might have TOO MUCH faith.

So magic tricks = meaningful evidence? Maybe you should ask for a sign.

[Northwestcoug]

This where I start pulling out my hair. You don't want a prophet, you want a fortune teller. I don't believe it has ever worked that way, nor should it. Roll off a few magic tricks and there is no longer any role for faith.

While I brought up the failure of the first presidency to prevent deaths from Hoffman, I don't think Wuap wants a 'fortune teller' in his instance. It sounds like he wants someone to authoritatively protect official doctrine by correctly interpreting historical documents. I think this counts as a separate failure, as some leaders were even trying to reinterpret history/doctrine in light of the fake document. That doesn't fall under the seer definition for me. Maybe prophet or revelator.

[Jeff Lebowski]

BTW, the church issued a new official document on preventing abuse. It was sent to all bishops and stake presidents a couple of days ago with instructions to use it to train ward leadership in both PEC and Ward Council meetings.

A few highlights:

1) Treat all claims of abuse seriously. " Most, but not all, allegations of abuse are true, and should be taken seriously and handled with great care."

2) No callings related to children or youth for anyone with an annotated record.

3) When teaching children, two adults must be present at all times. Two women, two men, or a married couple. (men and women now treated equally).

4) Ditto for any church sponsored activity involving youth

5) Whenever a leader meets with a child, youth, or woman, another adult must be present in the adjoining hall (this was already a rule). If the interviewee (or parent) desires, another adult may be invited to the interview.

6) "Church leaders should never disregard a report of abuse or counsel a member not to report criminal activity to law enforcement personnel"

7) "Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities."

[Clark Addison]

I'm really surprised that there are people who don't remember who their MTC president was. I don't know if that is because mine was much more visible than most, or maybe because I was there 8 weeks, or maybe because he was Devin Durrant's dad.

I taught at the MTC when Ed Pinegar was there, so I remember him well too. Saw his welcome speech several times. "Ed Jolley Pinegar just wants to be a good boy", story about beating UCLA, etc.

[smokymountainrain]

Yup. My five-year-old daughter calls it "Fake Church." Followed at 9:30 by "People Singing Songs."

Ha. That's great.

[smokymountainrain]

I'm really surprised that there are people who don't remember who their MTC president was. I don't know if that is because mine was much more visible than most, or maybe because I was there 8 weeks, or maybe because he was Devin Durrant's dad.

I taught at the MTC when Ed Pinegar was there, so I remember him well too. Saw his welcome speech several times. "Ed Jolley Pinegar just wants to be a good boy", story about beating UCLA, etc.

Yeah, if my mtc pres were devin durrant's dad, i would have remembered him.

[Jeff Lebowski]

While I brought up the failure of the first presidency to prevent deaths from Hoffman, I don't think Wuap wants a 'fortune teller' in his instance. It sounds like he wants someone to authoritatively protect official doctrine by correctly interpreting historical documents. I think this counts as a separate failure, as some leaders were even trying to reinterpret history/doctrine in light of the fake document. That doesn't fall under the seer definition for me. Maybe prophet or revelator.

You are cherry picking specific cases where something wasn't accurately predicted/detected and using them as litmus tests. You are essentially asking for a sign.

Maybe the role of a prophet/seer/revelator is to testify of Christ and provide general counsel for more general issues. Not to make short-term predictions or uncover specific deceptions using clairvoyance.

[tooblue]

This is where I start pulling out my hair. It's not that any one person is special. It's that if Gordon B. Hinckley, counselor in the First Presidency, can't tell that Hofmann's stuff was fake, if he can't go to the Lord and pray about these documents and get a clear answer, using the mantle of his office, that these documents that show that Joseph Smith III was the actual heir to the presidency of the Church, not Brigham Young, or that Moroni was a glowing salamander, and not a resurrected angel, then, basically the entire idea that any of us can receive guidance from the Spirit is indicted. For if a "Special Witness" can be deceived about something so important, not to protect one or two future victims of Hofmann's bombs, but to protect the doctrine and reputation of the Church of You Know JESUS CHRIST, then, I ask, sincerely, what is the point of accepting the foundation apostolic nature of its origins, as you suggest we must do? How can I put faith in the ability of GBH to lead and guide the Church by the still small voice when he clearly did not in this case and a couple a few others? He was a good man, a righteous man, but so was my grandfather, and he did not make me sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator. He just made me say "sir" after yes and no, I couldn't read the newspaper before he'd read it, and I had to take my hat off inside when he was around. He did like to claim to know when the Asheville Tourists were going to win, but he was no more right about that than my stake presidents have been about how our home teaching programs are going to "double the size of our stake in two years."

You are conflating special witness with genius mentalist. They are two very different things.

The role of a special witness is to preach of, teach about and invite all persons to come unto Christ, seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day, twelve months of the year (subtracting one or two-weeks in early July), every year until they die.

A genius mentalist is a fictional character you read about in books, or enjoy being portrayed by talented actors on tv or in the movies.

With regards to prophets, where and when necessary I have faith that they are effective seers who provide revelatory counsel relevant to my desire to act as a disciple of Christ. But also, primarily, I look to them as inspired leaders who, through apostolic authority, literally feed millions daily and encourage millions more to better themsleves through education, and in many circumstances provide the critical support to do so.

Additionally, through that same apostolic authority, I expect them to provide me and my family myriad opportunities to grow as persons through daily and weekly acts of service, performed under the mandate of a calling.

And lastly, through that same apostolic authority, I expect them to call me to repent, and invite me to remember Jesus Christ daily, whom as my redeemer has asked me to change my very nature, so that I may be a peacemaker and blessing to my family, friends, neighbours and community.

[wuapinmon]

This where I start pulling out my hair. You don't want a prophet, you want a fortune teller. I don't believe it has ever worked that way, nor should it. Roll off a few magic tricks and there is no longer any role for faith.

I'm a convert, and what sold me on our church was that we had a prophet. I was told that unlike other churches, ours was led and directed by the Spirit. That meant something to me. Then I read the stories about the early church, and how people saw things. The Three Witnesses. The whole Whitmer Family basically sees the Golden Plates. Brigham Young sees Joseph Smith transfigured. Lorenzo Snow brings a little girl back from the dead. M. Russell Ballard's great-grandpappy had a Newbury News handed to him in Logan, Utah, 3 days after it was published in the UK in the late 1880's, an impossibility in that day and age, and it just so happened to contain his family history which he then did. Joseph F. Smith dreamed a dream about his Uncle Alvin and we get a new section of the D&C.

And since then? What? The heavens are shut again? It's never worked that way? I was sold a bill of false goods. The Spirit of God like a fire is burning. Bullshit.

[wuapinmon]

You are cherry picking specific cases where something wasn't accurately predicted/detected and using them as litmus tests. You are essentially asking for a sign.

Maybe the role of a prophet/seer/revelator is to testify of Christ and provide general counsel for more general issues. Not to make short-term predictions or uncover specific deceptions using clairvoyance.

It's not asking for a sign for an apostle to be able to tell if a document is actually authentic doctrinal realia or not. "Dear Heavenly Father, asking not for myself, but for the Church, I have studied it out in my mind, and my experts tell me this is a real document, I feel it's real, please have the Spirit confirm it."

What the hell? If that's asking for a sign, then I'm goin' straight to hell, just like my momma said.

[tooblue]

I'm a convert, and what sold me on our church was that we had a prophet. I was told that unlike other churches, ours was lead and directed by the Spirit. That meant something to me. Then I read the stories about the early church, and how people saw things. The Three Witnesses. The whole Whitmer Family basically sees the Golden Plates. Brigham Young sees Joseph Smith transfigured. Lorenzo Snow brings a little girl back from the dead. M. Russell Ballard's great-grandpappy had a Newbury News handed to him in Logan, Utah, 3 days after it was published in the UK in the late 1880's, an impossibility in that day and age, and it just so happened to contain his family history which he then did. Joseph F. Smith dreamed a dream about his Uncle Alvin and we get a new section of the D&C.

And since then? What? The heavens are shut again? It's never worked that way? I was sold a bill of false goods. The Spirit of God like a fire is burning. Bullshit.

I don't want magic and parlour tricks. I want the methodical and pragmatic application of Gospel Principles. The meek shall inherit the earth, not boastful showmen.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm a convert, and what sold me on our church was that we had a prophet. I was told that unlike other churches, ours was lead and directed by the Spirit. That meant something to me. Then I read the stories about the early church, and how people saw things. The Three Witnesses. The whole Whitmer Family basically sees the Golden Plates. Brigham Young sees Joseph Smith transfigured. Lorenzo Snow brings a little girl back from the dead. M. Russell Ballard's great-grandpappy had a Newbury News handed to him in Logan, Utah, 3 days after it was published in the UK in the late 1880's, an impossibility in that day and age, and it just so happened to contain his family history which he then did. Joseph F. Smith dreamed a dream about his Uncle Alvin and we get a new section of the D&C.

And since then? What? The heavens are shut again? It's never worked that way? I was sold a bill of false goods. The Spirit of God like a fire is burning. Bullshit.

You keep spinning things in the most cynical way possible.

Did you really join the church on the condition/expectation that you would see some independently verifiable miracles in the intervening 20 years or so? If so, yeah that isn't a sustainable faith.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's not asking for a sign for an apostle to be able to tell if a document is actually authentic doctrinal realia or not. "Dear Heavenly Father, asking not for myself, but for the Church, I have studied it out in my mind, and my experts tell me this is a real document, I feel it's real, please have the Spirit confirm it."

What the hell? If that's asking for a sign, then I'm goin' straight to hell, just like my momma said.

If you ask that question and then conclude that the prophet is fake because God didn't answer THAT SPECIFIC REQUEST, then yes, you are asking for a sign.

[Omaha 680]

Because he can't run and dribble the ball? Watch again. Every two dribbles he picks up the ball with both hands and runs a few steps. Then starts dribbling again. That's a double-effing-dribble, Scott! Sidenote: I love that Pete from the Buttercream Gang is the leader of the street ballers.

Is Pete the main kid from the BC Gang? He was in my MTC branch. No one recognized him until about 3 weeks in when someone in my district did and outed him. He seemed less than pleased that everyone knew.