Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[CardiacCoug]

Are you saying the women quoted in the Trib article are lying???

No, I'm saying it's not clear to me how much if at all the BYU Honor Code contributes to underreporting of rape and whether or not that additional underreporting of rape because of the Honor Code has ever led to a rape occurring that wouldn't have occurred otherwise.

Rape on college campuses is often not reported for many reasons. Women frequently don't report rape because they feel that they were partially at fault due to drugs/alcohol, inviting the man into her apartment, not fighting back enough or communicating clearly enough, etc. They don't report because they just are unable or don't want to deal with it or are in denial. The reasons women don't report rape are multifactorial and obviously unique to each case.

Seems like it would be very tough to tease out the variable of fear of Honor Code from all the other variables that lead to underreporting -- however obviously I agree BYU should do everything possible to encourage reporting of rape and that includes telling the Honor Code gestapo to leave victims the hell alone.

[Northwestcoug]

No, I'm saying it's not clear to me how much if at all the BYU Honor Code contributes to underreporting of rape and whether or not that additional underreporting of rape because of the Honor Code has ever led to a rape occurring that wouldn't have occurred otherwise.

Rape on college campuses is often not reported for many reasons. Women frequently don't report rape because they feel that they were partially at fault due to drugs/alcohol, inviting the man into her apartment, not fighting back enough or communicating clearly enough, etc. They don't report because they just are unable or don't want to deal with it or are in denial. The reasons women don't report rape are multifactorial and obviously unique to each case.

Seems like it would be very tough to tease out the variable of fear of Honor Code from all the other variables that lead to underreporting -- however obviously I agree BYU should do everything possible to encourage reporting of rape and that includes telling the Honor Code gestapo to leave victims the hell alone.

I kind of understand what you're saying. But I'm still taking issue with your phrase 'if at all'. If you believe these women in the Trib article, the threat of honor code retaliation was very clearly a powerful motivator to not report their assaults.

From the article:

More than two dozen current and former BYU students have told The Salt Lake Tribune they did not report sex crimes against them — many for fear of school discipline...

"On the rape crisis unit, I had worked with at least a half a dozen women who were traumatized, having been raped; were brave enough to report it; and got kicked out of school because of the circumstances surrounding the rape," Julie said. BYU officials have said a student is never disciplined "for being a victim of sexual assault," but it acknowledges that a victim may be investigated for related violations of the Honor Code...

After the February assault in the Wilkinson Center, she said, the student who groped her used the Honor Code Office to threaten her.
"He told me if I told anyone, he would tell the Honor Code Office it was [consensual] — and that his roommate would back him up," Emily said..

"He got very threatening at that point with me," she said. "My heart was absolutely pounding and racing. I remember him going up the stairs of the basement, getting on the phone with the Honor Code Office, threatening to report me."

And on. We can argue over the extent of the problem, but there clearly is a problem with linking the honor code and assault reporting.

[New Mexican Disaster]

The real questions are: How could the Title IX coordinator be so dumb in her words, that the University would not apologize for enforcing the Honor Code even though it may have a chilling effect on reporting of sexual misconduct? And, how could the Honor Code be so damn dumb as to not put off their investigation until after a criminal case and investigation was through?

If pursuing minor violations of the Code trump all good sense and are embarrassing to the University, why does the Code stay? This is just going to get worse.

[imanihonjin]

That is putting a lot of trust in an organization that hasn't really acted in a manner that inspires trust. This is the organization that felt it necessary to lie about caffeine demand on campus.

I guess it is better than the current option, but it still give the rapist the tool to silence a victim.

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What the hell is wrong with you? Why does it have to be so black and white all the time? There is more nuance to this whole entire situation than simply wanting to catch all rapists. Of course we do, but it isn't just the honor code office that has to deal with the nuances of wanting to catch despicable rapists and at the same time acknowledging that just because someone is a victim of a horrible violent crime that that person should not always be absolved of all other things they may have done that, in isolation, are also terrible things. This isn't a balancing act that only occurs in rape situations either, it happens all the time in the real world in a variety of situations. It would not be good policy to simply absolve people of all accusation concerning their own behavior if they claim that they were the victim of some other type of worse behavior.

[Eddie]

Krakauer's book Missoula was really eye-opening for me regarding rape culture on college campuses..... .

I used to like Krakauer, but I just can't take any of his books seriously any more.

He did a radio interview on a national radio show when his Under the Banner of Heaven book came out. He talked about the number of polygamists living in Utah, and a lot of what he was saying about polygamy, it's acceptance in Utah, etc., was simply not true. Finally he made some comment about how you could "easily pick them out walking down the street in Salt Lake City", and I had to turn him off.

I also saw an interview with a couple of people who were on the Everest expedition that Into Thin Air was based on that basically described him as imaginative at best when it comes to some of the details and "facts" in his book.

I have no doubt that there are some elements of truth to what he is saying about a rape culture on university campuses. I also have no doubt that he has no qualms in using hyperbole and stretching his interpretation of the truth to sell a book. Which makes it hard for me to use anything he's written as evidence as to the pervasiveness of something.

[Shaka]

Lebowski vs MPFunk

[Solon]

awful human being?

istols:

I like old_gregg.

[Jeff Lebowski]

A different perspective on the controversy:

One in five women will be sexually assaulted in their time at college, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. On the other hand, these assaults tend to be wildly underreported, with a recent study showing that fully 91 percent of all colleges in the U.S. claimed zero incidents of rape in 2014. When we dig deeper into the data and look only at large schools (20,000 students or more) with residential facilities on campus, the numbers go up considerably — with 3,187 incidents of dating or domestic violence against women spread across 232 schools. That works out to a little more than 13 reported incidents on average per school in 2014.

How does BYU compare to the average? In 2014, on a campus of roughly 28,000 undergraduates, there was a single reported rape.

Alcohol is strongly correlated with sexual violence on campus. Assaults often take place at parties in fraternity and sorority houses, and in dorms where there is often no moral oversight of student behavior whatsoever, and where male and female students are free to come and go as they please at all hours of the day and night.

At BYU, by contrast, everybody knows that drinking, drugs, and partying are not only frowned upon but could lead to expulsion. There is no Greek life to speak of. Dorms are segregated by gender. Men and women are forbidden to be in a room together without supervision — and both are taught that sexual relationships are supposed to be limited to marriage. Early marriage is strongly encouraged and students who marry are provided with special family housing. And all of it is an outgrowth and expression of a comprehensive religious culture.

Title IX offices are important. But if we really wanted to cut rates of campus sexual assault, we could do worse than remaking secular universities in the image of BYU: Ban or severely restrict alcohol consumption; firmly regulate Greek life; and impose rules designed to make male students behave a little less like sexual predators and a little more like Mormons.

http://theweek.com/articles/621249/d...yus-honor-code

Your move, funk. Time to start a crusade against alcohol consumption.

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[byu71]

Your move, funk. Time to start a crusade against alcohol consumption.

Be careful how you frame it though Funk. I saw Kasich mention alcohol and the incidents or assault being much higher when alcohol is involved. He said basically tell your daughters to stay away from parties where drinking is going on.

He got blasted by those who are more current on correct speach because his comments was basically blaming the victim for going to a party and drinking. Dumb me, I didn't catch that until the media folks started pointing it out.

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[MartyFunkhouser]

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[byu71]

By the way Dude, funny that the article you use against my position proposes exactly the solution I gave. Former byu professor as well suggesting the approach.

"If the problem is obvious, so is the solution. All BYU would need to do is stipulate that when a sexual assault is alleged, the school's Title IX office (and possibly local law enforcement) will conduct the investigation, with the honor code office playing no role at all. Women need to know that they will not be subject to disciplinary action that could lead them to being expelled or otherwise punished as a direct or indirect consequence of reporting an assault. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could object to such a procedural reform."

Your move Dude. By the way, I really liked this article. Great points. I'm all for the eliminating the Greek system and some of his other proposals.


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I will bet as a percentage athletes are accused more than average. I think we should do away with athletics too.

[byu71]

Kasich deserved the criticism for promoting rape culture. He should have been emphasizing that a drunk person cannot consent, not focusing on what the victim needed to do to prevent the rape.

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I have never believed you are the dumb ass some accuse you of, however you might eventually convince me.