The CES Letter

[Omaha 680]

It comes across as some of these guys are dicks.

Doesn't that also kind of support what AA is saying? The people who are most aflutter about this "leak" already likely think a few of the 15 are dicks. So they will find confirmation in these videos. I don't think many active members will see them that way, though they may have feelings about their favorite and least favorite apostles confirmed as well.

It's obvious the church leaders can never improve in the eyes of their critics when the curtain is pulled back. I don't see what is so scandalous about the governing body of the church having presentations on relevant current events from experts and then discussing. Yeah, some of the comments are probably a little weird but we are talking about religion here which is weird from a strictly rational perspective. I would think some church opponents would find it laudable that the leaders are at least trying to inform themselves. Or maybe people just want leaked footage of these types of meetings to be 15 dudes passing a top hat around and taking turns looking inside.

[ERCougar]

That's exactly the problem people will have with the videos. The church is not going to lose cachet with people who already think it is wrong on the issues discussed in the videos; there's nothing left to lose among that crowd. Where this really hits is with the people who think there is something mystical about what goes on when the First Presidency and the Twelve gather behind closed doors. People are now getting an idea of what it would be like to be a fly in the room during these meetings-- and it turns out to be incredibly disappointing.

No, that's not the problem.
We all know how decisions are made in the Church. Even as a dyed in the wool Mormon, I knew that Church decisions were made by a bunch of people collectively doing the best they can and that they would make mistakes but that God would guide them on the big things. Like I said in my first post, there are no surprises to the wikileaks video, other than the fact that they truly can't seem to let the gay alone, even for a brief security presentation on a totally unrelated subject. A little embarrassing, but nothing new or groundbreaking, and non-members couldn't care less about it.

The Oregon senator is altogether different. Consider just a little of what he stated:
-that in making decisions as a senator, he considers his temple recommend more important than the people he's elected to represent
-that he's dependent on church direction to such an extent that if six weeks go by without explicit direction, he feels the need to call leadership and find out what he should do
-that his vote to go to war was in large part influenced by his desire to open up new areas of the mission field
-that he's using his influence as a senator to open up missions for the church
-that he's willing to share classified information with church leaders (doesn't even really matter whether it was classified--he said he thought it might be, and yet he's still talking...)
etc.

If you can't see how it might bother non-Mormon Oregonians that their representative is more interested in expanding his Church's influence than in representing them, then I don't know what else to say. It seems a particularly egregious violation of his mandate as a representative, a confirmation of worries people had about Romney (and Kennedy before him).

I agree that everything else is boring and will pretty much confirm everyone in what they already believed. But this video may cause some problems.

[myboynoah]

So it could cause problems for a former Oregon Senator? How so? What is he doing these days?

[Uncle Ted]

No, that's not the problem.
We all know how decisions are made in the Church. Even as a dyed in the wool Mormon, I knew that Church decisions were made by a bunch of people collectively doing the best they can and that they would make mistakes but that God would guide them on the big things. Like I said in my first post, there are no surprises to the wikileaks video, other than the fact that they truly can't seem to let the gay alone, even for a brief security presentation on a totally unrelated subject. A little embarrassing, but nothing new or groundbreaking, and non-members couldn't care less about it.

The Oregon senator is altogether different. Consider just a little of what he stated:
-that in making decisions as a senator, he considers his temple recommend more important than the people he's elected to represent
-that he's dependent on church direction to such an extent that if six weeks go by without explicit direction, he feels the need to call leadership and find out what he should do
-that his vote to go to war was in large part influenced by his desire to open up new areas of the mission field
-that he's using his influence as a senator to open up missions for the church
-that he's willing to share classified information with church leaders (doesn't even really matter whether it was classified--he said he thought it might be, and yet he's still talking...)
etc.

If you can't see how it might bother non-Mormon Oregonians that their representative is more interested in expanding his Church's influence than in representing them, then I don't know what else to say. It seems a particularly egregious violation of his mandate as a representative, a confirmation of worries people had about Romney (and Kennedy before him).

I agree that everything else is boring and will pretty much confirm everyone in what they already believed. But this video may cause some problems.

Does this mean we can finally be rid of Harry Reid (of course, he is retiring anyway), Orrin Hatch, Jason Chaffetz, and all those other bad politicians that are mormon? If so, maybe this isn't a such bad thing. Too bad Hillary Clinton, Donald Drumpf, Dianne Feinstein and Nancy Pelosi aren't mormon.

[Moliere]

Does this mean we can finally be rid of Harry Reid (of course, he is retiring anyway), Orrin Hatch, Jason Chaffetz, and all those other bad politicians that are mormon? If so, maybe this isn't a such bad thing. Too bad Hillary Clinton, Donald Drumpf, Dianne Feinstein and Nancy Pelosi aren't mormon.

Harry Reid doesn't count because he's a Democrat....or at least that's what I imagine the Dehlinites would say. I sometimes miss reading what their critical thinking skillz produce.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I'll share a few thoughts:

1. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Q12 and others being briefed on significant issues. It's probably a good way to keep folks who are both busy and elderly in the loop.

2. I do think that Gordon Smith and the fellow who introduced him were dreadful, and in a way that will confirm stereotypes about Mormons going back to the Council of Fifty days, Reed Smoot hearings, Mitt Romney, etc.

3. The demystification of the Church's functioning at the general levels is just another step on our way to becoming quirky protestants.

4. Some of the Qof12 seem just as frustrated with stake and ward leaders as are some of the rank-and-file. The zealousness without knowledge is out of hand; even when GA's want to influence practices and beliefs, some in local leadership fail to see the differences between their views and practices and what is being taught. In rhetoric, this is known as assimilation error.

5. Groupthink is a problem (duh).

6. Some leaders seem to be pushing for a more service-oriented Mormonism. This, I think, is one of the better paths forward, although leaders and correlators will have to stop seeing orthodoxy as being so important. They are losing their grip on orthodoxy anyway.

7. A few of the leaders' political biases are on display. That's not surprising, but it does emphasize the conservative, American viewpoints of those leaders with greater clarity than carefully worded letters and conference talks have done in recent decades.

8. Of course the meetings are boring--we're Mormons.

[Bo Diddley]

The Oregon senator is altogether different. Consider just a little of what he stated:
-that in making decisions as a senator, he considers his temple recommend more important than the people he's elected to represent
-that he's dependent on church direction to such an extent that if six weeks go by without explicit direction, he feels the need to call leadership and find out what he should do
-that his vote to go to war was in large part influenced by his desire to open up new areas of the mission field
-that he's using his influence as a senator to open up missions for the church
-that he's willing to share classified information with church leaders (doesn't even really matter whether it was classified--he said he thought it might be, and yet he's still talking...)
etc.

If you can't see how it might bother non-Mormon Oregonians that their representative is more interested in expanding his Church's influence than in representing them, then I don't know what else to say. It seems a particularly egregious violation of his mandate as a representative, a confirmation of worries people had about Romney (and Kennedy before him)..

It really sounds to me like Oregon elected a zealot. And if you think any politician is not beholden to lobbyists and special interest groups, you're kidding yourself.

[myboynoah]

It really sounds to me like Oregon elected a zealot. And if you think any politician is not beholden to lobbyists and special interest groups, you're kidding yourself.

Especially Mormon politicians using influence to help with Church issues overseas (visas, equal treatment, religious freedom, etc.); that's a given and not out of the ordinary.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That Oregon senator is an idiot. How embarrassing.

Given the length of the videos, 99% of members won't bother watching and most people will just pick the interpretation that best suits their need for self-validation, as witnessed by reactions thus far on social media.

I suspect that the video leak will be a good thing in the long run. Leaders and invited members will be more careful and circumspect in the future.

[lambdacoug]

Doesn't that also kind of support what AA is saying? The people who are most aflutter about this "leak" already likely think a few of the 15 are dicks. So they will find confirmation in these videos. I don't think many active members will see them that way, though they may have feelings about their favorite and least favorite apostles confirmed as well.

I'm pretty sure that there are not many exmos that think only "a few" of the Q15 are dicks.

[beefytee]

I think the Gordon Smith video would have been a big deal had it come while Mitt Romney was running. At this point, I don't think it will matters much.

[myboynoah]

I think the Gordon Smith video would have been a big deal had it come while Mitt Romney was running. At this point, I don't think it will matters much.

Or more importantly, Gordon Smith himself.

[jay santos]

I'm pretty sure that there are not many exmos that think only "a few" of the Q15 are dicks.

Exmos think all 15 are dicks?

[Shaka]

Exmos think all 15 are dicks?

The RFM and exmo reddit sites certainly have their share of exmos who do.

[ERCougar]

So it could cause problems for a former Oregon Senator? How so? What is he doing these days?

He's an Area 70.
I don't *think* he broke the law, although you probably would know the protocols re: classified information better than I would.

I'll share a few thoughts:

1. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Q12 and others being briefed on significant issues. It's probably a good way to keep folks who are both busy and elderly in the loop.

2. I do think that Gordon Smith and the fellow who introduced him were dreadful, and in a way that will confirm stereotypes about Mormons going back to the Council of Fifty days, Reed Smoot hearings, Mitt Romney, etc.

3. The demystification of the Church's functioning at the general levels is just another step on our way to becoming quirky protestants.

4. Some of the Qof12 seem just as frustrated with stake and ward leaders as are some of the rank-and-file. The zealousness without knowledge is out of hand; even when GA's want to influence practices and beliefs, some in local leadership fail to see the differences between their views and practices and what is being taught. In rhetoric, this is known as assimilation error.

5. Groupthink is a problem (duh).

6. Some leaders seem to be pushing for a more service-oriented Mormonism. This, I think, is one of the better paths forward, although leaders and correlators will have to stop seeing orthodoxy as being so important. They are losing their grip on orthodoxy anyway.

7. A few of the leaders' political biases are on display. That's not surprising, but it does emphasize the conservative, American viewpoints of those leaders with greater clarity than carefully worded letters and conference talks have done in recent decades.

8. Of course the meetings are boring--we're Mormons.

All interesting points, but I agree with others that the Mormons who care about these things will just get a little more irritated and the ones who don't won't suddenly take the time now. So again--not much new here, outside of the Gordon Smith video.

That Oregon senator is an idiot. How embarrassing.

Given the length of the videos, 99% of members won't bother watching and most people will just pick the interpretation that best suits their need for self-validation, as witnessed by reactions thus far on social media.

I suspect that the video leak will be a good thing in the long run. Leaders and invited members will be more careful and circumspect in the future.

Agree with all of this.

I think the Gordon Smith video would have been a big deal had it come while Mitt Romney was running. At this point, I don't think it will matters much.

Yup, would have been a much bigger deal in 2012. I still think this could have repercussions for the next round of Mormon candidates (outside of Utah).