The CES Letter

[SandYFan]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find I'm separating the teachings about loving others and being a good person from the teachings about the hereafter and whether gays should get married. I am all for living a good life on earth and not being a dick, but I find temple attendance and campaigning for Prop 8 and attending the block are not tied to this goal.

[Commando]

I am all for living a good life on earth and not being a dick, but I find temple attendance and campaigning for Prop 8 and attending the block are not tied to this goal.

I think there's a definite hierarchy of importance among those things you list for sure. Ultimately they're probably all either fruits of repentance or things geared to keep us on the right track of constant repentance. (some of us had nothing to do w prop 8 and are no worse for wear, so toss that one)

[Green Monstah]

Great write up. I agree that the Church is to blame for the black and white thinking. President Hinckley said on multiple occurrences that the first vision happened or it didn't. The book of Mormon is true or it isn't. etc. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. There is nuance to belief and faith. Black and white thinking saddens me.

In the thread SU started a while back addressed to PAC, JL, and others, I asked the folks who live in the gray how they reconciled their approach with the Church's rhetoric. I don't think anyone ever answered, but I think their silence is the answer: you have to ignore the rhetoric. Folks who live in the middle do so because they see the pragmatic benefits of the church. Such an approach renders black/white/gray distinctions less relevant or meaningful.

[SandYFan]

In the thread SU started a while back addressed to PAC, JL, and others, I asked the folks who live in the gray how they reconciled their approach with the Church's rhetoric. I don't think anyone ever answered, but I think their silence is the answer: you have to ignore the rhetoric. Folks who live in the middle do so because they see the pragmatic benefits of the church. Such an approach renders black/white/gray distinctions less relevant or meaningful.

The more I read, the more I feel like this is the crux of everything. Can you ignore the rhetoric? Can you look past all of that and focus on the positives of the church? If so, you will stay. If not, you will likely leave.

[SeattleUte]

In the thread SU started a while back addressed to PAC, JL, and others, I asked the folks who live in the gray how they reconciled their approach with the Church's rhetoric. I don't think anyone ever answered, but I think their silence is the answer: you have to ignore the rhetoric. Folks who live in the middle do so because they see the pragmatic benefits of the church. Such an approach renders black/white/gray distinctions less relevant or meaningful.

That wasn't my thread.

[creekster]

That wasn't my thread.

it was probably another Ute. You guys all look alike.

[SeattleUte]

it was probably another Ute. You guys all look alike.

It was Levin's thread. He asked something like how can smart guys like Pac, etc. continue to believe in the LDS Church--of course he said it as a believer. I think the types of exchanges that this letter to the CES represents are foolish in much the same way I think LDS apologetics is foolish.

[Donuthole]

It was Levin's thread. He asked something like how can smart guys like Pac, etc. continue to believe in the LDS Church--of course he said it as a believer. I think the types of exchanges that this letter to the CES represents are foolish in much the same way I think LDS apologetics is foolish.

It's like they are two sides of the same coin.

[SeattleUte]

It's like they are two sides of the same coin.

Yes. I was just explaining this to someone today.

Actually, I should amend about Levin. I don't know what he really believes. All I know about him is that he's an obnoxious troll who cares more about an antagonizing Sooner and Cardiac than nourishing their since childhood friendship.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's like they are two sides of the same coin.

SU never reads the links so he won't get your joke.

[Jeff Lebowski]

In the thread SU started a while back addressed to PAC, JL, and others, I asked the folks who live in the gray how they reconciled their approach with the Church's rhetoric. I don't think anyone ever answered, but I think their silence is the answer: you have to ignore the rhetoric. Folks who live in the middle do so because they see the pragmatic benefits of the church. Such an approach renders black/white/gray distinctions less relevant or meaningful.

I have a very simple paradigm: The church is clearly a mishmash of the human and the divine. You can take the cynical route and let the human part spoil it for you or you can spend a lifetime sifting out and finding joy in the divine.

[SeattleUte]

I have a very simple paradigm: The church is clearly a mishmash of the human and the divine. You can take the cynical route and let the human part spoil it for you or you can spend a lifetime sifting out and finding joy in the divine.

I've told you. I don't care about iterations of the first vision, the BOM, etc.

[Solon]

Doesn't that affect everything the Church teaches? If Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham with his imagination, are his teachings on the afterlife valid, for example?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find I'm separating the teachings about loving others and being a good person from the teachings about the hereafter and whether gays should get married. I am all for living a good life on earth and not being a dick, but I find temple attendance and campaigning for Prop 8 and attending the block are not tied to this goal.

It sounds like you are in the midst of the journey. I have many LDS family members/friends/etc. who have never embarked; I don't know anyone who has ever arrived at the destination.

Nietzsche wrote something along the lines of, "if you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss will also stare into you." For me, questioning authenticity, literalness, reality, religion, etc. is akin staring into the abyss. It's terrifying, but liberating. I don't have any answers - and there are guys on this board who are much smarter than I am and better at being LDS than I am, but really the only thing I am comfortable with these days is the proposition that the questions you ask matter far more than the answers.

Once you decouple from the assumption that some specific person, authority-figure, scripture has the answer you are looking for, the abyss will start staring back. The reading, reflection, searching, will eventually bring insights, ideas, possibilities - or maybe just a sense of equilibrium. Whether this comes from within, or whether it's God putting it in your mind, I don't know; either way, you'll probably become more comfortable with the questions. At least, I have.

You may never get any definitive, forever-true answers (I certainly haven't), but maybe you'll get some peace of mind (and, really, isn't that the most important thing?). 3 hours of church where you endure near-constant clamors about the family being under attack aren't really much help in answering these questions, but there are other, less self-involved reasons to participate in church (note that I do not necessarily practice what I preach here). But I honestly feel that wrestling with these kinds of questions does provide opportunities for moral growth, development of character, reflection, self-improvement, mindfulness, and service to others. IMO, we just have to get used to the idea that the 3 hours of church and the correlated experience are intended for something other than answering these types of questions.

I'm sorry if this sounds know-it-allish, or condescending at all. I mean nothing of the sort. I just share my own experiences & wish you well on your own.

[SandYFan]

I'm sorry if this sounds know-it-allish, or condescending at all. I mean nothing of the sort. I just share my own experiences & wish you well on your own.

Not at all, Solon. Thank you for your thoughts. They make sense.

[wally]

It sounds like you are in the midst of the journey. I have many LDS family members/friends/etc. who have never embarked; I don't know anyone who has ever arrived at the destination.

Nietzsche wrote something along the lines of, "if you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss will also stare into you." For me, questioning authenticity, literalness, reality, religion, etc. is akin staring into the abyss. It's terrifying, but liberating. I don't have any answers - and there are guys on this board who are much smarter than I am and better at being LDS than I am, but really the only thing I am comfortable with these days is the proposition that the questions you ask matter far more than the answers.

Once you decouple from the assumption that some specific person, authority-figure, scripture has the answer you are looking for, the abyss will start staring back. The reading, reflection, searching, will eventually bring insights, ideas, possibilities - or maybe just a sense of equilibrium. Whether this comes from within, or whether it's God putting it in your mind, I don't know; either way, you'll probably become more comfortable with the questions. At least, I have.

You may never get any definitive, forever-true answers (I certainly haven't), but maybe you'll get some peace of mind (and, really, isn't that the most important thing?). 3 hours of church where you endure near-constant clamors about the family being under attack aren't really much help in answering these questions, but there are other, less self-involved reasons to participate in church (note that I do not necessarily practice what I preach here). But I honestly feel that wrestling with these kinds of questions does provide opportunities for moral growth, development of character, reflection, self-improvement, mindfulness, and service to others. IMO, we just have to get used to the idea that the 3 hours of church and the correlated experience are intended for something other than answering these types of questions.

I'm sorry if this sounds know-it-allish, or condescending at all. I mean nothing of the sort. I just share my own experiences & wish you well on your own.

See, SandYFan, this is why all the Cougs on here have man-crushes on Solon (a Ute). He is a Goliath here in the foyer. I mean, just kickin' ass and taking names, man.