The seer stone

[jay santos]

I also don't get why some of these people apparently had no problem with the U & T (a couple of rocks at the ends of two rods stuck to a breastplate) but a stone? Now THAT's just too much to handle! It reminds me of an atheist commentator during the 2012 campaign who, in response to a Huckabee supporter who mocked Romney's "weird" Mormon belief that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, said something like "Okay, so we're talking about a story that the first man was formed 6,000 years ago from nothing, the first woman was formed by taking one of his ribs, they're tempted by a talking snake, she eats an apple for which they're doomed to mortality but managed to produce progeny totaling into the many billiions, and for you the weird part is that this took place in Missouri?"

I've always been totally cool with the stone, btw, probably more so than with the U&T, now that I think about it.

Urim and Thummim: has precedence in the Old Testament, was given to Joseph along with the plates by Angel Moroni specifically as a tool to translate the Book of Mormon.

Peepstone: found using Sally Chase's peepstone on an arguably illegal treasure hunting expedition. Until the gold plates were found, it was used in arguably illegal/sketchy ways. And, btw, until Richard Bushman, you couldn't find this information anywhere except "anti-Mormon" sources.

So, for you peepstone is more solid than U & T?

[Sullyute]

Any thoughts as to why now, and why not 20-50 years ago? Just seems really random to me. Pretty cool looking stone though.

Packer died.

[Goatnapper'96]

Angry that the church shows this seer stone after all these years, that they devoted time and money to a religion that came about because of a young man looking at a stone and producing an ancient spiritual record. You can hear the story a hundred times but seeing a picture really impacts people differently.

Sometimes I am tempted to think many of them are just whining pussies. I rarely succumb to that temptation.

[Uncle Ted]

Urim and Thummim: has precedence in the Old Testament, was given to Joseph along with the plates by Angel Moroni specifically as a tool to translate the Book of Mormon.

Peepstone: found using Sally Chase's peepstone on an arguably illegal treasure hunting expedition. Until the gold plates were found, it was used in arguably illegal/sketchy ways. And, btw, until Richard Bushman, you couldn't find this information anywhere except "anti-Mormon" sources.

So, for you peepstone is more solid than U & T?

Maybe JS Jr found that the peepstone was just more convenient to carry and use. It may have been the trend of the day... Have you ever tried putting an U & T in your pocket?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Urim and Thummim: has precedence in the Old Testament, was given to Joseph along with the plates by Angel Moroni specifically as a tool to translate the Book of Mormon.

Peepstone: found using Sally Chase's peepstone on an arguably illegal treasure hunting expedition. Until the gold plates were found, it was used in arguably illegal/sketchy ways. And, btw, until Richard Bushman, you couldn't find this information anywhere except "anti-Mormon" sources.

So, for you peepstone is more solid than U & T?

Until Richard Bushman? Brother Quinn might object to that.

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonis...gic+world+view

Also, illegal? What was illegal?

[jay santos]

Until Richard Bushman? Brother Quinn might object to that.

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonis...gic+world+view

Also, illegal? What was illegal?

Quinn was excommunicated. Anti-Mormon.

What was illegal? You forgetting Joseph's glasslooking charge?

[Donuthole]

I think the most interesting thing about the acknowledgement of the stone is how very differently the very same news is being processed by the orthodox vs. progmos vs. the ex-mos. At one point yesterday, my FB feed had back-to-back-to-back posts linking the from three individuals, each linking the news and providing a caption of their thoughts. The first was from an orthodox Mo who "loves hearing insights into the [Joseph Smith]'s life" and is "excited the church is releasing so much information for us to study." Am ex-mo friend who is notoriously light on nuance posted about how silly every Mormon must feel for ever believing Joseph Smith was a prophet, and how this was somehow evidence that he was a fraud. A third friend, who probably falls into the progmo category, wondered about the timing of the news, and speculating about what other information we could expect the church.

Not entirely unexpected reactions, but I thought it was curious to see them all posted right in a row. I wish I had grabbed a screen capture of this social demonstration of tunnel vision.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Quinn was excommunicated. Anti-Mormon.

Ha. Touche'.

Everyone (including Bushman) credits Quinn for breaking ground on this.

What was illegal? You forgetting Joseph's glasslooking charge?

OK, but kind of disingenuous to use the "arguably illegal" line as an argument today, no? That would be like having a law against searching for Bigfoot.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think the most interesting thing about the acknowledgement of the stone is how very differently the very same news is being processed by the orthodox vs. progmos vs. the ex-mos. At one point yesterday, my FB feed had back-to-back-to-back posts linking the from three individuals, each linking the news and providing a caption of their thoughts. The first was from an orthodox Mo who "loves hearing insights into the [Joseph Smith]'s life" and is "excited the church is releasing so much information for us to study." Am ex-mo friend who is notoriously light on nuance posted about how silly every Mormon must feel for ever believing Joseph Smith was a prophet, and how this was somehow evidence that he was a fraud. A third friend, who probably falls into the progmo category, wondered about the timing of the news, and speculating about what other information we could expect the church.

Not entirely unexpected reactions, but I thought it was curious to see them all posted right in a row. I wish I had grabbed a screen capture of this social demonstration of tunnel vision.

I am curious what you think he meant by that.

[SeattleUte]

Reactions have been fascinating. The seer stone has been referenced a zillion times. But produce an actual photo and some folks go bonkers. I don't get it.

Right. Not you progmos, because you're seasoned, jaded, tough and nasty about the LDS Church. You can take any LDS absurdity, anything that reveals even a farcical, a humiliating quality to LDS mythology or theology. Nothing phases you.

Personally, I always imagined the seer stone as something like a beautiful crystal that magically lights up when you put it in a dark place, and reveals poetic phrases within its facets. Instead we get this prosaic rock.

Apparently LDS leaders are just as jaded as you all. Because if this seer stone were all its been cracked up to be -- if they really believed that -- they they'd have constructed an edifice, an entire gorgeous building to house it in, and kept it in a holy of holies, except for April 6 of each year.

What a comedy. lol! This thread already deserves five stars.

[jay santos]

OK, but kind of disingenuous to use the "arguably illegal" line as an argument today, no? That would be like having a law against searching for Bigfoot.

hmm, no, I disagree. I might have some information wrong, but this is my understanding.

Glasslooking/money digging/treasure seeking, whatever you call it was illegal. My understanding was that it was not that commonly charged and prosecuted, and it was somewhat accepted as legit by segment of society, but it was technically illegal. The common fraud was for someone to be hired to look for treasure on someone's land. They would look into the rock in their hat and see a vision of the treasure buried 10 feet deep. Then people would start digging and then when they got close, the fraudster would say "oh crap, it just feel deeper, it's too deep to dig up now, bummer." Joseph was allegedly charged with doing something like this using that same brown stone.

A little bit different than a law against looking for Bigfoot.

I say "allegedly" and "arguably" because I think the historical account is not perfectly clear on what the exact charge was and whether he was found guilty, but there's enough there that writers like Quinn and Bushman acknowledge it.

[pellegrino]

Right. Not you progmos, because you're seasoned, jaded, tough and nasty about the LDS Church. You can take any LDS absurdity, anything that reveals even a farcical, a humiliating quality to LDS mythology or theology. Nothing phases you.

Personally, I always imagined the seer stone as something like a beautiful crystal that magically lights up when you put it in a dark place, and reveals poetic phrases within its facets. Instead we get this prosaic rock.

Apparently LDS leaders are just as jaded as you all. Because if this seer stone were all its been cracked up to be -- if they really believed that -- they they'd have constructed an edifice, an entire gorgeous building to house it in, and kept it in a holy of holies, except for April 6 of each year.

What a comedy. lol! This thread already deserves five stars.

Yeah, I read that story about the Brother of Jared too.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Right. Not you progmos, because you're seasoned, jaded, tough and nasty about the LDS Church. You can take any LDS absurdity, anything that reveals even a farcical, a humiliating quality to LDS mythology or theology. Nothing phases you.

Personally, I always imagined the seer stone as something like a beautiful crystal that magically lights up when you put it in a dark place, and reveals poetic phrases within its facets. Instead we get this prosaic rock.

That's funny. My wife and I were talking last night and we had both imagined it as some kind of semi-transparent crystal.

Apparently LDS leaders are just as jaded as you all. Because if this seer stone were all its been cracked up to be -- if they really believed that -- they they'd have constructed an edifice, an entire gorgeous building to house it in, and kept it in a holy of holies, except for April 6 of each year.

What a comedy. lol! This thread already deserves five stars.

Sure, unless you had actually paid attention to LDS history. From the Ensign article:

According to Joseph Smith’s history, he returned the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite “interpreters,” to the angel. But what became of the other seer stone or stones that Joseph used in translating the Book of Mormon?

David Whitmer wrote that “after the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished, early in the spring of 1830, before April 6th, Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more.”


Oliver, who was outside the Church for a decade until being rebaptized in 1848, planned to go west to be with the Saints in Utah, but he died in 1850 in Richmond, Missouri, before making the trip. Phineas Young, who had helped bring Oliver Cowdery back into the Church, obtained the seer stone from Oliver’s widow, who was David Whitmer’s sister, Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery. Phineas in turn gave it to his brother Brigham Young.

JS told several people that he came to realize that he didn't need a seer stone. It was just a crutch or talisman of some sort. Kind of amazing how it just got passed around.

[Donuthole]

I am curious what you think he meant by that.

I gather he was questioning why this was 2015 news and not 1995 news. And it felt rhetorical, really. Like his way of nonchalantly pointing out that this is stuff many people have known about for a long time, so why did it take so long to make it public? And why did it ever need to be secr . . . er . . . sacred in the first place? Typical questions from someone who is treading down a path to alcoholism and swingers parties.

[Jeff Lebowski]

hmm, no, I disagree. I might have some information wrong, but this is my understanding.

Glasslooking/money digging/treasure seeking, whatever you call it was illegal. My understanding was that it was not that commonly charged and prosecuted, and it was somewhat accepted as legit by segment of society, but it was technically illegal. The common fraud was for someone to be hired to look for treasure on someone's land. They would look into the rock in their hat and see a vision of the treasure buried 10 feet deep. Then people would start digging and then when they got close, the fraudster would say "oh crap, it just feel deeper, it's too deep to dig up now, bummer." Joseph was allegedly charged with doing something like this using that same brown stone.

A little bit different than a law against looking for Bigfoot.

I say "allegedly" and "arguably" because I think the historical account is not perfectly clear on what the exact charge was and whether he was found guilty, but there's enough there that writers like Quinn and Bushman acknowledge it.

Do you think it should have been illegal? If so, would you argue that we outlaw any kind of questionable enterprise today? I would be interested in seeing your list.

I am not defending the practice at all; it sounds ridiculous. But to highlight the legal status relative to early 19th-century America seems disingenuous to me. There were lots of wacky laws back then that would not hold constitutional muster today.