Why mormons disaffect from church

[CardiacCoug]

I'm blushing here There I was, late 30's and taking the majority of teachings I heard from the church as literal truth, even those 'obviously false' things. I also had a lot of faith that my priesthood leaders received divine revelation, even knowing they were imperfect. Well sure, they are obviously false now. But not a few years ago, dammit!

You've said similar things a few times before. I'm honestly curious what percentage of the church membership do you think takes the 'obviously false' things as literal truth. Also, how normal do you think the transition from a literal to an abstract theology at ~25 years of age, as you say?

I've got to say, I think your precocious transition to abstract theology represents a rare event in the church. The majority of members I know believe the literalness of what they've been taught since primary, logic be damned. I would also wager that if these people after decades of sacrificing a lot for the church were to come to a realization that it's 'probably total bullshit', the fallback to the metaphor way of life wouldn't be their first reaction. They're going to be pissed for awhile. Some of them might be able to fall back into stealth mode full activity, but not many. If you don't believe in even the core doctrines of the church (as I'm assuming you don't), the important things in life can be relatively easily found outside of the church.

I don't know what other people think but I strongly suspect that most adults know deep down that believing in angels, devils, dead people coming back to life, heaven, hell, etc. is like believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

[Sleeping in EQ]

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http://rdlang05.hubpages.com/hub/App...tages-of-Faith

I think we are talking past one another, and having read Fowler's book I don't necessarily agree with what that fellow on the website has to say.

Demythologizing is central to stage four, and was central to the discussion I commented on above.

In stage four, the "tensions" are the popping of the ideological bubble and a search for identity that isn't defined by the faith community (and other communities). Valuing the community stops being a point of tension in stage 5, and starts becoming a point of fulfillment. In stage 5, community is no longer about the ideological construction of identity (as it was in stage three).

I certainly haven't equated stage four with ego-centrism or close-mindedness. However, the website you linked to isn't consistent on this issue. In referring to stage 5, it says "this stage of faith can only come about when one moves past the self-certainty and ego-centrism of the past stage...."

In short, community doesn't mean the same thing to a person in stage 3 as it does to a person in stage 5, and this website you've cited doesn't make those differences clear.

[ERCougar]

I don't know what other people think but I strongly suspect that most adults know deep down that believing in angels, devils, dead people coming back to life, heaven, hell, etc. is like believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't.
I'm with NWC on this. I think you had very unusual parents.

[Northwestcoug]

I don't know what other people think but I strongly suspect that most adults know deep down that believing in angels, devils, dead people coming back to life, heaven, hell, etc. is like believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

I could believe that relatively many members might harbor doubts of their beliefs every once in a while, that they only entertain quickly and go on believing what gives them hope. But a majority of adults in the church that don't believe what they are taught, week in and week out? Nope, I just don't see it.

My step-father is a good example of the type of adult you describe. He only confided in me that he is a closet atheist when I told my mom I no longer believe. I think my mom and I are the only ones who know he is an atheist. Yet he attends every week and participates in callings. And he says essentially the same things you say; he stays for the benefits.

But a majority of adults are like him? No way. I think you (and he) are rare birds. But maybe I'm a bad judge. Other than SEIQ, ER, Pilgrim, are there others here actively participating who are in the same belief level as Cardiac?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think we are talking past one another, and having read Fowler's book I don't necessarily agree with what that fellow on the website has to say.

Demythologizing is central to stage four, and was central to the discussion I commented on above.

In stage four, the "tensions" are the popping of the ideological bubble and a search for identity that isn't defined by the faith community (and other communities). Valuing the community stops being a point of tension in stage 5, and starts becoming a point of fulfillment. In stage 5, community is no longer about the ideological construction of identity (as it was in stage three).

I certainly haven't equated stage four with ego-centrism or close-mindedness. However, the website you linked to isn't consistent on this issue. In referring to stage 5, it says "this stage of faith can only come about when one moves past the self-certainty and ego-centrism of the past stage...."

In short, community doesn't mean the same thing to a person in stage 3 as it does to a person in stage 5, and this website you've cited doesn't make those differences clear.

Meh. I think you are nitpicking a little at this point, professor.

Either way, are you seriously arguing that OM is still cruising along through the stages of faith based on his posts today? One thing I recall very clearly from the book (no link needed!) is that many people stop at a stage or jump off the train altogether. IOW, one can't very well make peace with a faith community if one rejects and abandons the faith community, right? That seems to be the point of the author of the essay and it certainly makes logical sense..

[ERCougar]

Meh. I think you are nitpicking a little at this point, professor.

Either way, are you seriously arguing that OM is still cruising along through the stages of faith based on his posts today? One thing I recall very clearly from the book (no link needed!) is that many people stop at a stage or jump off the train altogether. IOW, one can't very well make peace with a faith community if one rejects and abandons the faith community, right? That seems to be the point of the author of the essay and it certainly makes logical sense..

I don't think the progression has much to do with physical presence in or out of the community. See SU on "apostate" being one of the highest compliments. See also nearly every OT prophet (that we cite Amos 3:7 to get people to fall in line is still one of the great ironies of the church), Jesus, the great reformers, and a host of unknown mystics who could never find a home in the established institution.

I'm not ready to call him stage 6 though.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think the progression has much to do with physical presence in or out of the community. See SU on "apostate" being one of the highest compliments. See also nearly every OT prophet (that we cite Amos 3:7 to get people to fall in line is still one of the great ironies of the church), Jesus, the great reformers, and a host of unknown mystics who could never find a home in the established institution.

I'm not ready to call him stage 6 though.

Huh? I think you missed my point. (And Fowler's point)

[ERCougar]

Huh? I think you missed my point. (And Fowler's point)

I haven't really followed the back and forth between you and SIEQ so maybe, but staying in an institution is not at all indicative of progressing through stages. Maybe that's not what you're saying? One of my favorite definitions from that book that has stuck with me through the years is faith as "how one leans into life". Atheists can have stage 6 faith. In fact, many stage 6 people are reviled as apostates, historically speaking.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Meh. I think you are nitpicking a little at this point, professor.

Either way, are you seriously arguing that OM is still cruising along through the stages of faith based on his posts today? One thing I recall very clearly from the book (no link needed!) is that many people stop at a stage or jump off the train altogether. IOW, one can't very well make peace with a faith community if one rejects and abandons the faith community, right? That seems to be the point of the author of the essay and it certainly makes logical sense..

No, I am not arguing that OM is still cruising along through the stages of faith. He seems to have jumped off the train.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I haven't really followed the back and forth between you and SIEQ so maybe, but staying in an institution is not at all indicative of progressing through stages. Maybe that's not what you're saying? One of my favorite definitions from that book that has stuck with me through the years is faith as "how one leans into life". Atheists can have stage 6 faith. In fact, many stage 6 people are reviled as apostates, historically speaking.

Maybe I'll do a quick refresher on Fowler's stages. After all, it's the summer and we haven't discussed them in a long time on here.

[jay santos]

I don't know what other people think but I strongly suspect that most adults know deep down that believing in angels, devils, dead people coming back to life, heaven, hell, etc. is like believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

What's your reason that millions (or at least a lot) of LDS adults claim to believe these things?

My guess is that at least half of adults on this earth believe in something supernatural. No?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I haven't really followed the back and forth between you and SIEQ so maybe, but staying in an institution is not at all indicative of progressing through stages. Maybe that's not what you're saying? One of my favorite definitions from that book that has stuck with me through the years is faith as "how one leans into life". Atheists can have stage 6 faith. In fact, many stage 6 people are reviled as apostates, historically speaking.

Fowler says an extremely small number of people reach stage 6. His examples include Gandhi, MLK, and Mother Teresa.

Yes, loyalty to a particular institution does not define enlightenment in Fowler's universe. But it would be even more misleading to claim that enlightenment requires or involves abandonment of institutions and organized religion. James Fowler was a minister in the United Methodist Church.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Maybe I'll do a quick refresher on Fowler's stages. After all, it's the summer and we haven't discussed them in a long time on here.

It is funny how we sometimes debate his theory as if it is some kind of transcendent truth. It is just one guy's model. I think Marcus Borg discusses the same concepts in a far superior fashion. And he is a 100x better writer.

[Sleeping in EQ]

It is funny how we sometimes debate his theory as if it is some kind of transcendent truth. It is just one guy's model. I think Marcus Borg discusses the same concepts in a far superior fashion. And he is a 100x better writer.

Indeed. In my field we run into stage theory enough that its strengths and weaknesses are old hat. I'll give Fowler credit for bringing attention to these issues, though.

[Topper]

Indeed. In my field we run into stage theory enough that its strengths and weaknesses are old hat. I'll give Fowler credit for bringing attention to these issues, though.

Didn't Fowler precede Borg? I like both of them and Fowler's introduction useful. Perhaps my memory is faulty though.