2015 April Conference Thread

[Northwestcoug]

maybe, but it's a point that _doesn't_ need to be made. even the temple says to pretend that you are A&E.
And surely he knows it's ammo for the anti-evolution folks. Maybe he is one of them, I don't know.

if he says it's required, I'd like to know why it's required.

Really? What was the purpose of the atonement, if there wasn't a literal Adam who fell from a state of grace? This seems like Mormonism 101 to me.

Look, you can still have a belief in evolution and a literal Adam and Eve. It requires a fair amount of nuancing some scriptures and some creative thinking. There's that whole 'there was no death on the earth prior to Adam' teaching, but that can be nuanced also. But once you discount a literal Adam and Eve you really negate a HUGE chunk of the centrality of Christ's mission.

[SCcoug]

Really? What was the purpose of the atonement, if there wasn't a literal Adam who fell from a state of grace? This seems like Mormonism 101 to me.

Look, you can still have a belief in evolution and a literal Adam and Eve. It requires a fair amount of nuancing some scriptures and some creative thinking. There's that whole 'there was no death on the earth prior to Adam' teaching, but that can be nuanced also. But once you discount a literal Adam and Eve you really negate a HUGE chunk of the centrality of Christ's mission.

I think it is belief in a humanity's fallen state is necessary not the story of how it happened (although most church members don't separate those two).

[Jeff Lebowski]

Really? What was the purpose of the atonement, if there wasn't a literal Adam who fell from a state of grace? This seems like Mormonism 101 to me.

Look, you can still have a belief in evolution and a literal Adam and Eve. It requires a fair amount of nuancing some scriptures and some creative thinking. There's that whole 'there was no death on the earth prior to Adam' teaching, but that can be nuanced also. But once you discount a literal Adam and Eve you really negate a HUGE chunk of the centrality of Christ's mission.

Not really. Lots of ways you can spin "the fall" that don't involve a literal tree with literal fruit.

[chrisrenrut]

Really? What was the purpose of the atonement, if there wasn't a literal Adam who fell from a state of grace? This seems like Mormonism 101 to me.

Look, you can still have a belief in evolution and a literal Adam and Eve. It requires a fair amount of nuancing some scriptures and some creative thinking. There's that whole 'there was no death on the earth prior to Adam' teaching, but that can be nuanced also. But once you discount a literal Adam and Eve you really negate a HUGE chunk of the centrality of Christ's mission.

Because all fall short, and grace is needed to make up the difference. Adam and Eve (and the talking, crawling snake) could easily be a narrative made to illustrate why humans created by a perfect God are not perfect themselves.

[Brian]

Really? What was the purpose of the atonement, if there wasn't a literal Adam who fell from a state of grace? This seems like Mormonism 101 to me.

Look, you can still have a belief in evolution and a literal Adam and Eve. It requires a fair amount of nuancing some scriptures and some creative thinking. There's that whole 'there was no death on the earth prior to Adam' teaching, but that can be nuanced also. But once you discount a literal Adam and Eve you really negate a HUGE chunk of the centrality of Christ's mission.

it's pretty easy.
I am A&E.

I can't think of a better way to reconcile all the problems of literality.
punished for our own sins
talking snakes
humans in missouri
magic trees
death before fall
incest

[Northwestcoug]

Not really. Lots of ways you can spin "the fall" that don't involve a literal tree with literal fruit.

Because all fall short, and grace is needed to make up the difference. Adam and Eve (and the talking, crawling snake) could easily be a narrative made to illustrate why humans created by a perfect God are not perfect themselves.

Sure, you don't need a literal tree, fruit, or talking snake. Those can be waved away with hardly any damage to a gospel doctrine. But that's not what the general discontent from ER and others seems to be focused on. They are arguing about the literal existence of Adam and Eve.

I think it is belief in a humanity's fallen state is necessary not the story of how it happened (although most church members don't separate those two).

OK, so exactly what was the fallen state? Was there a paradisical (sp?) existence of the earth at one point, and was it inhabited by humans? Or is the fallen state more allegorical, like we have fallen from God's presence and need Christ to get us back 'home'?

I certainly support making as much scripture allegorical as possible, especially the nonsense parts. But you have to admit there is a lot more teaching in the Mormon canon that compels members to accept a literal Adam and Eve. Remember, Joseph Smith saw him, and added further evidence that he existed.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light!

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

Joseph F. Smith saw him as well:

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all

That's a lot of testifying of Adam's literal existence. So if the scriptures are true about his existence, why aren't they true about what his fall entailed?

[RC Vikings]

I think Pearson gave my favorite talk on Sunday afternoon.

Just hanging on isn't enough.

It was my least favorite.

[Northwestcoug]

it's pretty easy.
I am A&E.

I can't think of a better way to reconcile all the problems of literality.
punished for our own sins
talking snakes
humans in missouri
magic trees
death before fall
incest

I'd hate to see what 'hard' is for you

Are you really saying that 'punished for our own sins' is evidence that a literal fall by Adam doesn't make sense? How come Mormons separate 'death' that came via Adam into spiritual and physical parts?

[byu71]

It was my least favorite.

My least too. Sometimes hanging on is good enough for the time being. Walk in someone elses shoes before making those kind of guilt trip statements.
It is OK if you liked it though Tick because you are one of my favorite fellows.


As far as Adam and Even go, I am surprised at how worked up people get over this. Does the church have an official position you can read somewhere?

[wuapinmon]

This is what happened the last time I worried about having to claim I believe that there was not a literal Adam & Eve:

Dear Mac:

I just glanced at your dossier again and noticed that you are a Mormon, which, according to current Baylor policy, we do not hire. I regret to say that this will exclude you from further consideration.

I wish you the best in your job search.

[byu71]

This is what happened the last time I worried about having to claim I believe that there was not a literal Adam & Eve:

I don't know what your feelings are and I am sorry it would exclude you from applying for a job if you wanted to.

My attitude would be just the same as I have to the PAC12, what a bunch of intolerant hypocrical pricks. Probably the PAC12 more than
Baylor because on second thought BYU probably writes the same kind of letters to people and I don't consider them pricks.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I wonder if there is a Baylor board out there somewhere where some poster is complaining that he couldn't get hired at BYU because he is a baptist.

[TripletDaddy]

I wonder if wuap's Baylor (b12) application would have been viewed differently had BYU not shut down its wrestling program?

[byu71]

I wonder if there is a Baylor board out there somewhere where some poster is complaining that he couldn't get hired at BYU because he is a baptist.

Yep, the more I thought about it I overreacted. Why shouldn't a private religious institution be allowed to discriminate based on someone's personal beliefs that don't coincide with their own? It isn't like they are the only university one could work for.

[clackamascoug]

Reprising my point from yesterday.

If we exist, (and we do), and if evolution is the way we got here, (it was) then there has to be an Adam and Even in between these two points. Someone had to make the jump between animal and human, heralding a new genetic strain of gods who know the difference between good and evil.

Seriously, what's the big deal?