The June 1

[ERCougar]

The problem with the brief is that it addressed stuff that made no sense to address, not that the points were wrong. I agree with the point that the church disciplinary process is ridiculous and highlights the institutional sexism, but that's not the point to be made when you're going into a council yourself. "Hey, guys, you know this court you're holding for me? Totally bullshit." The other problem is that it was too wordy, which is the same critique I have with most resignations letters. Say what you have to say and be quick about it.

I don't know what to make of the delay. The cynical side of me says that it's the bishop needing to consult with SLC and/or the PR group after a robust discussion of the negative PR that will result. The not-so-cynical side of me says it's the bishop wondering if he really should excommunicate her.

Yeah, I don't disagree that it was unnecessarily inflammatory (a common thread through this process--Kate seems to have a lot of supporters who have different motives and aren't doing her any favors), but I think the section on apostasy was necessary and appropriately thorough.

irony check on your admonition against wordiness?

[Pheidippides]

irony check on your admonition against wordiness?

I almost said something about that but it was already too wordy.

[Uncle Ted]

The problem with the brief is that it addressed stuff that made no sense to address, not that the points were wrong. I agree with the point that the church disciplinary process is ridiculous and highlights the institutional sexism, but that's not the point to be made when you're going into a council yourself. "Hey, guys, you know this court you're holding for me? Totally bullshit." The other problem is that it was too wordy, which is the same critique I have with most resignations letters. Say what you have to say and be quick about it.

I agree. The brief was very thorough but addressed too much stuff. On the other hand, I thought it was brilliant move that the brief was not written by Kate Kelly. Her letter, on the other hand, was much better...

http://ordainwomen.org/wp-content/up...of-Defense.pdf

I don't know what to make of the delay. The cynical side of me says that it's the bishop needing to consult with SLC and/or the PR group after a robust discussion of the negative PR that will result. The not-so-cynical side of me says it's the bishop wondering if he really should excommunicate her.

Or maybe they are still reading the over 1,000 letters that were sent on her behalf.

[SeattleUte]

I thought the brief did two things.

1. Showed how unfair the "court" was. From not following procedure to the no women representation on the counsel.

2. That she didn't commit apostasy

They are sleeping on this because the press is going to have a field day with this if they excommunicate her.

Good summary.

[SeattleUte]

The problem with the brief is that it addressed stuff that made no sense to address, not that the points were wrong. I agree with the point that the church disciplinary process is ridiculous and highlights the institutional sexism, but that's not the point to be made when you're going into a council yourself. "Hey, guys, you know this court you're holding for me? Totally bullshit." The other problem is that it was too wordy, which is the same critique I have with most resignations letters. Say what you have to say and be quick about it.

I don't know what to make of the delay. The cynical side of me says that it's the bishop needing to consult with SLC and/or the PR group after a robust discussion of the negative PR that will result. The not-so-cynical side of me says it's the bishop wondering if he really should excommunicate her.

But she is neither trying to persuade her inquisitors nor submitting a resignation letter.

Since she's going along with the conceit that that this is a very important court because the maximum sentence is the "spiritual death" penalty it would be unthinkable not to address due process and show that the system is rigged against women (much like the judicial system remains rigged against blacks in the south), and the inquisitors aren't even following their own pretentious procedural rules, which itself demonstrates bias.

I love this situation because it highlights the fundamental irony of all organized religions. The historical Jesus, Paul, Joseph Smith, were all apostates and heretics. They just were. But if the movement succeeds what began as a response to the problem of police state oppression inevitably becomes part of the problem. Joseph Smith was the historical Jesus and his hanging judge and the mob at Carthage were the Sanhedrin and the Roman executioners. Now she's the historical Jesus and the "church court" is the Sanhedrin and the Romans wrapped up into one.

I hope she doesn't go on to found her own religion because the world needs more religion like it needs a hole in the head.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wow. Fascinating how worked up SU is over defending this brief.

[SeattleUte]

Wow. Fascinating how worked up SU is over defending this brief.

I'm always fascinated by the cyclical nature of religion. The movement founded by the apostate Martin Luther winds up providing much of the rationalization for the Holocaust. It always comes around this way. Also, I know a good legal brief when I see it. It's what I do.

[ERCougar]

SU likes the entire brief because like the CES letter (which isn't nearly as well written), it will go down as one of these touchstone documents that exmos will go back to to remind themselves why they're right, much like spiritual experiences and the BOM function for members. It was inflammatory, but it's also a fairly complete dressing down of the entire affair. Unfortunately for Kelly, that may lead to her undoing.

My prediction: disfellowshipment with conditions she'll never meet. It's the kind of lukewarm response I've come to expect. Carries out the purpose while washing blood from hands. Sad that we now emulate Pilate.

[byu71]

The more I see and hear this lady, the more I feel I have misjudged her. She seems like a very nice lady with sincere beliefs in the Book of Mormon and other aspects of mormonism.

She is sincere and articulate enough that I would like to see her start her own offshoot of the mormon church and actually be their first prophetess (sp). She has a following and I think she would have her followers into the new church.

I think what she will do though is hang out and bitch about the mormon church, much like SU and Sooner.

[Maximus]

SU likes the entire brief because like the CES letter (which isn't nearly as well written), it will go down as one of these touchstone documents that exmos will go back to to remind themselves why they're right, much like spiritual experiences and the BOM function for members. It was inflammatory, but it's also a fairly complete dressing down of the entire affair. Unfortunately for Kelly, that may lead to her undoing.

My prediction: disfellowshipment with conditions she'll never meet. It's the kind of lukewarm response I've come to expect. Carries out the purpose while washing blood from hands. Sad that we now emulate Pilate.

so instead of looking at it objectively, you are using it to reinforce your already held views. I love how you compare this to Pilate. Says it all.

[Moliere]

I'll agree that the Apostasy section of the brief were good from a contextual standpoint. The part where she pointed out the gender bias in the whole process will be effective from a PR standpoint for the progmos. The media will likely report on this as a patriarchal heavy process that is defending itself (rules set up by men that unfairly punish a woman that is trying to level the playing field for women). Just the optics of a group of men kicking out Kelly is bad enough. It would be like a group of white men in 1970 kicking out a black man that is lobbying for the PH.

[Surfah]

I didn't read the brief. 16 pages isn't really brief.

[SoonerCoug]

I didn't read the brief. 16 pages isn't really brief.

Sixteen pages seems long to you?

[ERCougar]

so instead of looking at it objectively, you are using it to reinforce your already held views. I love how you compare this to Pilate. Says it all.

yes, I have come to an opinion on this already. I wish i could be as objective as you. of course, then my claim of pulling over to the side of the road in tears of joy when the gender ban is reversed would be a little hollow. let me know how believable your claim comes across.

[Surfah]

Sixteen pages seems long to you?

It depends on the topic.