The June 1

[YOhio]

I'd ask Leb too, but I don't know if he can even seen this

He's either scared to death of you or he's following SU's rule that nonresponse signifies agreement. It's probably a bit of both.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Does anyone know who Jeffery Westover is? Earlier this morning, I noticed on FB that my sister-in-law had liked a blog post "13 Lies from OrdainWomen.org." I gave the awful write up a quick once over at 5 a.m. over a bowl of cereal but when I try and go back to it now, his whole site (jefferywestover.com) appears to be off the grid.

[Jeff Lebowski]

if you think it is a distinction without a difference then it is pointless to suggest i am free to discuss the consequence of your reasoning if you will then assert it is a personal attack, even if none is meant. You, or should I say one, can't have it both ways.

You now wish to talk about moral weight in an apparently personal context when before we were talking about weight given the scriptures in a gospel context. You, or one, can decide whatever one wants in a personal context, but once you try to put the scriptures in a gospel context, you, or one, can only take away so much before the remnants fall as inadequate support for the gospel approach.

Let me repeat something here: I have NEVER suggested that genocide is a component of the covenant. I have said that God's order to kill was integral to his fulfillment of the covenant promises. But it was done in his time, for his reasons and under his direction. In a gospel context, genocide is integral to God's fulfillment of the covenant, which premise you have not even attempted to refute, apart from saying you just don't believe it (an example of you stating your own belief). You then throw out the fact (which I consider to be irrelevant to this discussion) that God is described as plural in the beginning of the OT but singular in the latter parts. That's sort of true, but really it breaks down, as I recall, along the lines of the source material, with the E source (if my memory serves) referring to plural Elohim. The latter part of the OT, by which I assume you mean the prophets, is not from that source, or at least not much of it is. But what does that mean in this context? Indeed, this fact actually is very consistent with what JS taught about the OT in a gospel context.

Moreover, the LACK of something in the OT, such as a modern concept of the priesthood, or of notions of the after life, is also not relevant. Because what IS found in the OT is what is at issue. And what IS found is the covenant and the way in which it was presented, promised and fulfilled by God. The lack of some concepts may further undermine the OT and any claim to its utility as a gospel guide, but it certainly doesn't undermine my point.

How do we decide what to believe (FTR this is what you asked above, so I am not trying to delve into your personal feelings here)? In the gospel context we might look to the prophet or similar authoritative sources. Outside that context, there are a lot of ways, but not many of them are consistent with the gospel. If one eliminates those portions of the OT that one personally concludes are not historical, and then eliminates those portions that one finds do not resonates with one's one moral tuning fork, then one is left with not much at all in the OT to follow in the gospel context.

Oh brother. Now you are just being patronizing.

[Pheidippides]

Does anyone know who Jeffery Westover is? Earlier this morning, I noticed on FB that my sister-in-law had liked a blog post "13 Lies from OrdainWomen.org." I gave the awful write up a quick once over at 5 a.m. over a bowl of cereal but when I try and go back to it now, his whole site (jefferywestover.com) appears to be off the grid.

The exmormon stasi got him.

I saw the same article linked and read it. It was pretty horrible - I think most of us would agree. Among other things is claimed that most ward councils have more women on them than men.

[Donuthole]

stop coming here.

#twss

[Pheidippides]

At least he's a son and not a daughter...



While I agree that "driving force" is a bit strong, the fact that Clayton visited the stakes of both Kelly and Dehlin within a short time frame and obviously called Kelly's group apostate, it certainly leads one to believe he has a hand in this. It's highly unlikely that he told the SP of each stake to hold a disciplinary hearing for Kelly and Dehlin. However, what is a local leader to do when a higher ranking leader says someone is apostate? Should the SP just ignore the comment and not hold a council? Once Clayton says the group is apostate the SP hands are tied at least in terms of holding a council.

And I'm not seeing why Clayton's talk "Watch and Learn" is even being mentioned. If anything it's evidence against his misogyny. Here's an excerpt:

The talk is only relevant because it was somewhat memorable with the cadence/phrasing, and I thought it might help people recognize who he is.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

The exmormon stasi got him.

I saw the same article linked and read it. It was pretty horrible - I think most of us would agree. Among other things is claimed that most ward councils have more women on them than men.

That's what I figured given that pile of stink. The ward council bit was pretty good.

So today's guest on Radio West to represent the church is Ally Isom. Suave move by the church to send another woman. I don't know anything about her save the fact that she used to work for Gov. Herbert until Thanksgiving 2013 when she left to spend more time with her family. I guess she didn't like her family very much.

[Joe Public]

I guess she didn't like her family very much.

Or Gov. Herbert.

[creekster]

Oh brother. Now you are just being patronizing.

the viet nam strategy. Declare victory and leave. As you wish.

[Pheidippides]

Or Gov. Herbert.

What's the story on Herbert? Is he generally liked In Utah? All I know about him is that he insists on defending gay marriage even though it's likely he loses at the Supreme Court.

[Shaka]

Can I answer yes to both? Maybe 80% dysfunction 20% design. As you can imagine, the organizational politics there are off the hook. Combine that with passive aggressive Mormon culture where nobody actually says what they mean and you get written up for causing contention and you've got a recipe for corporate dysfunction to the Nth degree.

EDIT: as you can imagine, nepotism is off the hook too.

My father held the Church's account for his employer for many years and even though he was a hardliner he would agree with you completely. His biggest beef with the COB was that the prevailing culture at the time caused everyone in there to think that God wouldn't let them make a mistake. His view was that they made a lot of mistakes.

[Moliere]

The exmormon stasi got him.

I saw the same article linked and read it. It was pretty horrible - I think most of us would agree. Among other things is claimed that most ward councils have more women on them than men.

The women in our ward council elect to sit in the chairs that are in the corner behind the bishop so in some regards it's like they are not even there.

[Jeff Lebowski]

the viet nam strategy. Declare victory and leave. As you wish.

Declare victory? Leave?

[Blueintheface]

:catfight:

[creekster]

Declare victory? Leave?

Pretty much. But I suspect we both said all we can on those issues.