The June 1

[TripletDaddy]

I have to chuckle at something Solon said the other day. He and his wife were over the other night (the day this whole thing broke, I think) and she said she didn't really care about having the priesthood. He replied, "that's because you don't value it. If it were ten million dollars, just going to each of the men in the church, would you care?"

I laughed then, but it's actually a pretty good point. You women have access to it...you just have to marry a man.

Wow, Solon's wife sounds pretty materialistic.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Wow, Solon's wife sounds pretty materialistic.

That's why she married a doctor.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That's why she married a doctor.

[Pheidippides]

A bunch of new information this morning. First, John Dehlin says that his SP swears this is a local action spearheaded by John's former EQP who is now on the high council. I find that somewhat hard to believe (a high councilor spearheading a disciplinary council? Somebody with more experience there should weigh in.) but I'm not sure that make it any less disturbing. Kate said that at least one member of the presidency of the seventy was aware of the proceedings in her case prior to any publicity, and that she went public only because her SP was going to if she didn't. And then throw Rock Waterman in the mix - yeah, I'm not buying that this is a local act. (Kate's SP sounds like the worst kind of asshole, although we are just getting her side of the story).

And now John Larsen is also out there talking smack about Dehlin and insinuating hypocrisy. But I think John Larsen is the most narcissistic of all of the podcasters, so it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here - not that it makes the accusation untrue. It seems that the drama is just as much of an issue for the ex/fringe mo podcasting world as it is for the church generally, if not more.

There is one thing that I think sets Kate and her situation apart completely here, however. Dehlin has been very open about his nonbelief, and this is not his first go-round with disciplinary proceedings. I don't know what he gets from his continued participation, although I know that his kids are pretty active in YW, speak in church, etc. Perhaps it's a place of comfort for him. Perhaps it enhances his brand name and income (if you want to be cynical) or his ability to help others deal with disaffection, in or out (if you don't want to be cynical). Rock has also openly said that he thinks the current iteration of the church is far afield of where it should be and needs to come back to original/sound principles, and that he doesn't care about excommunication because it's just a meaningless piece of paper. The action against them surprises me a little in that I think the wisest course of action is to not pay attention to them when they go off (some of you need to learn the same lesson about cougjunkie), but other than that I can't say I'm too shocked.

Kate, however, is a true believer. I'm convinced of this. I don't think it's logical, and my wife has stated a couple of times that she just doesn't realize that she doesn't believe yet, but regardless she believes this to be the One True Church. And she's trying to operate within the parameters she has in that light. This is why the action against her surprises me quite a bit - but I guess not really, because she's the only one who truly values her membership and hence is the only one really likely to back down at all with the threat of punishment. However, I can't think of a better way to galvanize a movement than to make the leader a martyr (there have been 75 new profiles on OW since the news broke, a massive increase), and you would think the church of all organizations would understand this.

Today on RadioWest Dehlin reputedly compared the church to a dirty shirt, called it a billion dollar organization, and said this is why you don't have 80 year old men run it (I didn't listen). He also said that Monson suffers from dementia. While I agree with him generally (other than the billion dollar thing - that's several magnitudes too small), I think he probably just committed suicide-by-cop. Kate, on the other hand, was reputedly very sympathetic and broke down into tears (as she's done in a couple of other interviews). Excommunicating her would be a huge mistake.

[ERCougar]

Anyone who's heard Kate in any forum would have a very hard time believing that she's in this for any sort of attention or to bring the church down. But I guess it's much easier to just assume the worst.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

(other than the billion dollar thing - that's several magnitudes too small)

So the church is quadrillion or quintillion aires? No wonder the women want in on that sweet action.

HnQkGMo0mgqidxd3JVtDuIXUo1_400.jpg

[Pheidippides]

So the church is quadrillion or quintillion aires? No wonder the women want in on that sweet action.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4407[/ATTACH]

My estimate is 11/bn a year in revenue. It's no less than 7. Their assets are probably in the range of 50bn, although that's much harder to gauge.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Interesting. Dehlin is one strange cat. I haven't followed him much lately. I recall that he stopped doing the Mormon Stories conferences and pulled back from some other activities because he felt like he was having too negative an influence on the church. So what is he doing now that is causing this controversy? It seemed to me like he had kind of fallen off the radar.

Agree on Kate Kelly. You may disagree with her tactics, but she seems sincere with good intentions.

[SeattleUte]

A bunch of new information this morning. First, John Dehlin says that his SP swears this is a local action spearheaded by John's former EQP who is now on the high council. I find that somewhat hard to believe (a high councilor spearheading a disciplinary council? Somebody with more experience there should weigh in.) but I'm not sure that make it any less disturbing. Kate said that at least one member of the presidency of the seventy was aware of the proceedings in her case prior to any publicity, and that she went public only because her SP was going to if she didn't. And then throw Rock Waterman in the mix - yeah, I'm not buying that this is a local act. (Kate's SP sounds like the worst kind of asshole, although we are just getting her side of the story).

And now John Larsen is also out there talking smack about Dehlin and insinuating hypocrisy. But I think John Larsen is the most narcissistic of all of the podcasters, so it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here - not that it makes the accusation untrue. It seems that the drama is just as much of an issue for the ex/fringe mo podcasting world as it is for the church generally, if not more.

There is one thing that I think sets Kate and her situation apart completely here, however. Dehlin has been very open about his nonbelief, and this is not his first go-round with disciplinary proceedings. I don't know what he gets from his continued participation, although I know that his kids are pretty active in YW, speak in church, etc. Perhaps it's a place of comfort for him. Perhaps it enhances his brand name and income (if you want to be cynical) or his ability to help others deal with disaffection, in or out (if you don't want to be cynical). Rock has also openly said that he thinks the current iteration of the church is far afield of where it should be and needs to come back to original/sound principles, and that he doesn't care about excommunication because it's just a meaningless piece of paper. The action against them surprises me a little in that I think the wisest course of action is to not pay attention to them when they go off (some of you need to learn the same lesson about cougjunkie), but other than that I can't say I'm too shocked.

Kate, however, is a true believer. I'm convinced of this. I don't think it's logical, and my wife has stated a couple of times that she just doesn't realize that she doesn't believe yet, but regardless she believes this to be the One True Church. And she's trying to operate within the parameters she has in that light. This is why the action against her surprises me quite a bit - but I guess not really, because she's the only one who truly values her membership and hence is the only one really likely to back down at all with the threat of punishment. However, I can't think of a better way to galvanize a movement than to make the leader a martyr (there have been 75 new profiles on OW since the news broke, a massive increase), and you would think the church of all organizations would understand this.

Today on RadioWest Dehlin reputedly compared the church to a dirty shirt, called it a billion dollar organization, and said this is why you don't have 80 year old men run it (I didn't listen). He also said that Monson suffers from dementia. While I agree with him generally (other than the billion dollar thing - that's several magnitudes too small), I think he probably just committed suicide-by-cop. Kate, on the other hand, was reputedly very sympathetic and broke down into tears (as she's done in a couple of other interviews). Excommunicating her would be a huge mistake.

It won't surprise me if John gets a reprieve and Kate doesn't. There's nothing that the LDS gerontocracy fears more than intelligent dissident women, except the prospect of LDS women fully emancipated in the LDS Church. Our religions' and in turn our civilization's patriarchy and sexism have been uniquely all about men's fear of sharing and unwillingness to share power with women. Kate's struggle is all about struggle for shared power. Men have never really regarded women as inferior in the same way that this element has been a rationalization for racism or other bigotry such as hatred of homosexuals.

Don't let tradition and the way it's always been beguile you into thinking that the root of this is something more altruistic or noble than men wanting to hog all the power. In Common Sense Thomas Paine succeeded in persuading the under-educated mass of American colonists that just because it had always been that way, they should not presume that a daddy King was necessary or appropriate for society's well being. Likewise, OW's struggle is part and parcel of oppression of women that has existed throughout society since before history, and we should not accept it in any sphere just as we should not accept kings or slavery or polygamy because they were there since before the Bible. Indeed, as Nicholas Kristof warns, what we see happening in Syria and Nigeria is part of this global oppression of women that has been variously enforced by religions, and now that religion is separated from government in the West, it is the most profound and far reaching way in which religion still oppresses and causes suffering.

If women held the priesthood and became members of the 15, the character of the LDS Church would change fundamentally, just as the legal, academic and corporate cultures have changed with the advent of women as executives, board members, litigators et al. That is what the 15 fears most.

[Pelado]

It won't surprise me if John gets a reprieve and Kate doesn't. There's nothing that the LDS gerontocracy fears more than intelligent dissident women, except the prospect of LDS women fully emancipated in the LDS Church. Our religions' and in turn our civilization's patriarchy and sexism have been uniquely all about men's fear of sharing and unwillingness to share power with women. Kate's struggle is all about struggle for shared power. Men have never really regarded women as inferior in the same way that this element has been a rationalization for racism or other bigotry such as hatred of homosexuals.

Don't let tradition and the way it's always been beguile you into thinking that the root of this is something more altruistic or noble than men wanting to hog all the power. In Common Sense Thomas Paine succeeded in persuading the under-educated mass of American colonists that just because it had always been that way, they should not presume that a daddy King was necessary or appropriate for society's well being. Likewise, OW's struggle is part and parcel of oppression of women that has existed throughout society since before history, and we should not accept it in any sphere just as we should not accept kings or slavery or polygamy because they were there since before the Bible. Indeed, as Nicholas Kristof warns, what we see happening in Syria and Nigeria is part of this global oppression of women that has been variously enforced by religions, and now that religion is separated from government in the West, it is the most profound and far reaching way in which religion still oppresses and causes suffering.

If women held the priesthood and became members of the 15, the character of the LDS Church would change fundamentally, just as the legal, academic and corporate cultures have changed with the advent of women as executives, board members, litigators et al. That is what the 15 fears most.

Are you sure? I thought what they feared most was porn.

[imanihonjin]

A bunch of new information this morning. First, John Dehlin says that his SP swears this is a local action spearheaded by John's former EQP who is now on the high council. I find that somewhat hard to believe (a high councilor spearheading a disciplinary council? Somebody with more experience there should weigh in.) but I'm not sure that make it any less disturbing. Kate said that at least one member of the presidency of the seventy was aware of the proceedings in her case prior to any publicity, and that she went public only because her SP was going to if she didn't. And then throw Rock Waterman in the mix - yeah, I'm not buying that this is a local act. (Kate's SP sounds like the worst kind of asshole, although we are just getting her side of the story).

And now John Larsen is also out there talking smack about Dehlin and insinuating hypocrisy. But I think John Larsen is the most narcissistic of all of the podcasters, so it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here - not that it makes the accusation untrue. It seems that the drama is just as much of an issue for the ex/fringe mo podcasting world as it is for the church generally, if not more.

There is one thing that I think sets Kate and her situation apart completely here, however. Dehlin has been very open about his nonbelief, and this is not his first go-round with disciplinary proceedings. I don't know what he gets from his continued participation, although I know that his kids are pretty active in YW, speak in church, etc. Perhaps it's a place of comfort for him. Perhaps it enhances his brand name and income (if you want to be cynical) or his ability to help others deal with disaffection, in or out (if you don't want to be cynical). Rock has also openly said that he thinks the current iteration of the church is far afield of where it should be and needs to come back to original/sound principles, and that he doesn't care about excommunication because it's just a meaningless piece of paper. The action against them surprises me a little in that I think the wisest course of action is to not pay attention to them when they go off (some of you need to learn the same lesson about cougjunkie), but other than that I can't say I'm too shocked.

Kate, however, is a true believer. I'm convinced of this. I don't think it's logical, and my wife has stated a couple of times that she just doesn't realize that she doesn't believe yet, but regardless she believes this to be the One True Church. And she's trying to operate within the parameters she has in that light. This is why the action against her surprises me quite a bit - but I guess not really, because she's the only one who truly values her membership and hence is the only one really likely to back down at all with the threat of punishment. However, I can't think of a better way to galvanize a movement than to make the leader a martyr (there have been 75 new profiles on OW since the news broke, a massive increase), and you would think the church of all organizations would understand this.

Today on RadioWest Dehlin reputedly compared the church to a dirty shirt, called it a billion dollar organization, and said this is why you don't have 80 year old men run it (I didn't listen). He also said that Monson suffers from dementia. While I agree with him generally (other than the billion dollar thing - that's several magnitudes too small), I think he probably just committed suicide-by-cop. Kate, on the other hand, was reputedly very sympathetic and broke down into tears (as she's done in a couple of other interviews). Excommunicating her would be a huge mistake.

I know Kate's Stake President very well. He is a kind good man and it is telling that she claims he was going to go public with the info if she didn't. Yeah I am pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

[YOhio]

It won't surprise me if John gets a reprieve and Kate doesn't. There's nothing that the LDS gerontocracy fears more than intelligent dissident women...

Also earthquakes along the Wasatch Fault. They've upgraded a lot of the older facilities in the SL valley to make them more earthquake resilient so I know that's a big fear of the brethren.

[Pheidippides]

I know Kate's Stake President very well. He is a kind good man and it is telling that she claims he was going to go public with the info if she didn't. Yeah I am pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

Your vouch for him is doing him no favors. FYI.

[Pheidippides]

Interesting. Dehlin is one strange cat. I haven't followed him much lately. I recall that he stopped doing the Mormon Stories conferences and pulled back from some other activities because he felt like he was having too negative an influence on the church. So what is he doing now that is causing this controversy? It seemed to me like he had kind of fallen off the radar.

Agree on Kate Kelly. You may disagree with her tactics, but she seems sincere with good intentions.

Mormon stories is back up, but it holds less interest for me. He is a strange guy and I can't figure him out. But I appreciate what he has done in the past. His real benefit is that he has straddled a line appealing to multiple groups.

I have a friend - newly released RS president - who is going nuts over this. Rumor has it she was released because some ward members complained about her being too liberal (she was only in for a year). But I'm still kind of shocked to see her in forums I don't see many active members show up in.

[Northwestcoug]

I know Kate's Stake President very well. He is a kind good man and it is telling that she claims he was going to go public with the info if she didn't. Yeah I am pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

I listened to part of her FMH podcast. It was interesting because all involved (her, her bishop, and her SP) are all lawyers. She framed her issues with the discipline in legal terms. When her SP asked her to meet with her, she asked for an agenda, arguing that no lawyer would schedule a brief or whatever without preparing an agenda. According to her, the threat of discipline was not on the agenda, but he pulled it on her when they met. So she felt deceived.

By the way, there are many kind and good leaders in the church. I think a lot of the criticism about these recent disciplinary actions are centered around the structure these good people work in. Their directive is to go after apostates. If there wasn't a pressure to suppress vocal criticism of the church, I wonder if most of these men would act the same.