Latest Stats and Facts on Punography

[Rosebud]

Educate me, counselor. How am I betraying bias here? Seems to me I'm evincing an open mind. Okay, I see evidence of porn or (more accurately) sex addiction. And I'm asking what I think is a really good question. How prevalent is porn addiciton, and what is the cost to society?

SU, despite his reputation for being unchanging, HAS actually made several concessions on this thread.

And agreed... the prevalence of porn addiction is central to understanding if we're talking about Mormon "hysteria" or a serious problem that has the potential to be threatening to society.

Here's one site with some porn use stats:

http://internet-filter-review.topten...tatistics.html

But really what we're talking about here is religion's role in this very personal mental health problem. That's the real subject of this thread.

I'm glad that someone knows what the real subject of this thread is...

So I guess I am biased in this one sense. I'm opposed to religion getting in the business of treating mental illness in any shape or form. I think anyone who has this mental illness and goes to a bishop instead of someplace like the Mayo Clinic for treatment is an idiot. I think religion probably just causes a lot of damage or is ineffective.

Nice blanket statement... guessing that you've made similar statements about the interference of religion in everyone's lives before. Wondering, then, if you'll expand on "damage" and "ineffective." And btw, I'm not getting after you for your "idiot" statement... just thinking that a little more information will make you arguments stronger.

[SeattleUte]

SU, despite his reputation for being unchanging, HAS actually made several concessions on this thread.

And agreed... the prevalence of porn addiction is central to understanding if we're talking about Mormon "hysteria" or a serious problem that has the potential to be threatening to society.

Here's one site with some porn use stats:

http://internet-filter-review.topten...tatistics.html



I'm glad that someone knows what the real subject of this thread is...



Nice blanket statement... guessing that you've made similar statements about the interference of religion in everyone's lives before. Wondering, then, if you'll expand on "damage" and "ineffective." And btw, I'm not getting after you for your "idiot" statement... just thinking that a little more information will make you arguments stronger.

I have written here quite a bit about Mormonism's monolithic, tightly controlled and top down institutional structure, its relentless efforts to control members' thoughts and personal actions, the moral and social outlook rooted in a time preceding Spinoza, the anachronistic perceptions of gender roles and sex, the emphasis on one size fits all and overriding concern for preservation of the community and the instruction, the members' explicit and implicit submission and resignation to their Mormon leaders' directions absent any real skepticism, the magic world view and attendant distorted historical perspective and hostility to intellectualism, the tendency of the community to close ranks and shun and draw facile conclusions about right and wrong and morality. I think this makes for an unhealthy dynamic when an individual goes to Mormonism for help in solving a serious personal problem, including addiction. Not the least of the problems is a lack of empathy, charity, and understanding from the institution. (All insitutional religion suffers from these foibles to some extent.)

Generally, I think Mormons would be better off breaking the mental and emotional hammerlock in which their religion strives to hold them. I might add, though, that I respect a number of individuals who speak out here and seem to have found a way to live in a space in which they are part of the Mormon community but free of the atavistic mechanisms of control I've generally listed above. These people are the true enigmas.

A couple of additional footnotes. First, perhaps most unfortunate of all are those who reject the Mormon lifestyle and having so long relied on an off the shelf product are unable to forge their own systematic and virtuous approach to life, and therefore exist absent any mooring. Second, when I was active LDS no one ever talked about porn. (Indeed, truthfully, I don't really understand porn's attraction, especially when the real thing is available.) My thoughts on that specific issue are based on characterizations here of the LDS reaction to porn, which, the consensus seems to be, are extreme, uncharitable and lacking understanding or scientific basis.

[SeattleUte]

If you want to kill a thread, hire me. I can kill any thread, even the most durable threads.

[RobinFinderson]

If you want to kill a thread, hire me. I can kill any thread, even the most durable threads.

Sweet! The 'punography' thread lives on. Go D-Nut! Go D-Nut! Go D-Nut!

[Rosebud]

No worries D

If you want to kill a thread, hire me. I can kill any thread, even the most durable threads.

I have plenty more to say... just not enough hours in the day...

And SU, your confidence is rather endearing .

And really RF, what man would use the word "endearing?"

[RobinFinderson]

I have plenty more to say... just not enough hours in the day...

And SU, your confidence is rather endearing .

And really RF, what man would use the word "endearing?"

RoseBud, you are such a TROLL!!

[Rosebud]

RoseBud, you are such a TROLL!!

Lol... no offense. I also find that men who use the word "endearing" are endearing. Even so... I'm NOT a dupe.

[YOhio]

I have written here quite a bit about Mormonism's monolithic, tightly controlled and top down institutional structure, its relentless efforts to control members' thoughts and personal actions, the moral and social outlook rooted in a time preceding Spinoza, the anachronistic perceptions of gender roles and sex, the emphasis on one size fits all and overriding concern for preservation of the community and the instruction, the members' explicit and implicit submission and resignation to their Mormon leaders' directions absent any real skepticism, the magic world view and attendant distorted historical perspective and hostility to intellectualism, the tendency of the community to close ranks and shun and draw facile conclusions about right and wrong and morality.

Sounds interesting. Can you point me to some of your thoughts on this subject?

BTW, you get the Cuffy for longest sentence, though it was more grapevine than Cormac McCarthy.

[SeattleUte]

BTW, you get the Cuffy for longest sentence, though it was more grapevine than Cormac McCarthy.

Counselor, I think this once we'll have to agree to disagree. I trust we'll remain friends.

[SeattleUte]

Sounds interesting. Can you point me to some of your thoughts on this subject?

BTW, you get the Cuffy for longest sentence, though it was more grapevine than Cormac McCarthy.

The more I think about this, I'm thinking how dare you. I paid you a compliment in the post, a compliment you cut out of the part of the post you chose to highlight in your disparaging reply.

I'm also thinking that you are Rosebud.

[YOhio]

The more I think about this, I'm thinking how dare you. I paid you a compliment in the post, a compliment you cut out of the part of the post you chose to highlight in your disparaging reply.

I'm also thinking that you are Rosebud.

I love you man. I really do. To paraphrase Mr. Mac, nobody does indignation like SU. Nobody.

[RobinFinderson]

I really think this thread got very muddled. Can someone please paraphrase the best arguments for why pornography is bad?

[Babs]

I really think this thread got very muddled. Can someone please paraphrase the best arguments for why pornography is bad?

It objectifies, demeans, and subjugates women.

It creates a disconnect between a man and his real-life partner.

When used regularly, it trains the body and mind to physiologically respond to artificial reproductions of sex, rather than the real thing. Pavlov ring a bell?

It creates sexual dysfunction in men, by exposing them to more and more extreme types of sex, until typical sex with a real partner is not enough to inspire interest.

It puts men at risk of committing date rape, as they learn from porn that forced sex is acceptable and erotic.

[Rosebud]

Kitchen Sinking

I have written here quite a bit about Mormonism's monolithic, tightly controlled and top down institutional structure, its relentless efforts to control members' thoughts and personal actions, the moral and social outlook rooted in a time preceding Spinoza, the anachronistic perceptions of gender roles and sex, the emphasis on one size fits all and overriding concern for preservation of the community and the instruction, the members' explicit and implicit submission and resignation to their Mormon leaders' directions absent any real skepticism, the magic world view and attendant distorted historical perspective and hostility to intellectualism, the tendency of the community to close ranks and shun and draw facile conclusions about right and wrong and morality. I think this makes for an unhealthy dynamic when an individual goes to Mormonism for help in solving a serious personal problem, including addiction. Not the least of the problems is a lack of empathy, charity, and understanding from the institution. (All insitutional religion suffers from these foibles to some extent.)
.

Thanks Seattle...

Here's my NEWCOMER observation: it's really difficult to have a coherent discussion about this topic or any topic when posters "kitchen sink" the threads. "Kitchen sinking" happens when people bring up unrelated or slightly related arguments to prove their points. The term comes from fighting couples who "kitchen sink" their arguments when they try to resolve a SINGLE conflict by debating about EVERYTHING that bothers them in the relationship -- including the dirty dishes in the sink. I believe pornography is important and worth continuing to discuss... but too much "kitchen sinking" makes it incomprehensible.

I personally think that Seattle has a lot of important arguments that many people on this board agree with. He gets a lot of defensive responses because he states them angrily and has a tendency to talk in extremes.

I, for one, am a bit disgusted by the kitchen sinking, the extremes and the defensiveness, because they make it almost impossible to carry on any sort of productive conversation. To help mitigate this problem I've made a quick bullet point summary of Seattle's main arguments (from the above paragraph). Seattle -- you're welcome to insult me for this action... but I'd prefer you revise my list to make it more closely reflect your beliefs. I'm doing this in hopes of being able to get past these arguments so that we can discuss pornography without me getting a headache because I'm confused about the topic.

* ARGUMENT 1: The LDS Church has too much control over its members

* ARGUMENT 2: LDS people are too willing to submit to the will of their church

* ARGUMENT 3: The LDS church discriminates against women, gays, and (historically) blacks

* ARGUMENT 4: The LDS church doesn't promote thinking among its members

* ARGUMENT 5: The LDS church shuns those who express contradictory opinions

* ARGUMENT 6: The members of the LDS church don't receive charity and compassion from their church because it has become so institutionalized (I'm sure I didn't word that one right, Seattle)


I hope breaking these down isn't insulting. Truthfully, I think a lot of the posters here agree that most of these arguments are valid in some (maybe even most) situations. My hope is that by delineating them so succinctly we'll be able to discuss pornography without trying to wade through all of these arguments at the same time.

And I know it's weird that I haven't visited Ellis Island... but that doesn't mean that I'm duping you. It just means that I'm a private person. I'll probably get around to it at some point... but I don't really see why it matters where I live, what I do, etc. I'm strange that way... that's all. K?

[CardiacCoug]

It objectifies, demeans, and subjugates women.

It creates a disconnect between a man and his real-life partner.

When used regularly, it trains the body and mind to physiologically respond to artificial reproductions of sex, rather than the real thing. Pavlov ring a bell?

It creates sexual dysfunction in men, by exposing them to more and more extreme types of sex, until typical sex with a real partner is not enough to inspire interest.

It puts men at risk of committing date rape, as they learn from porn that forced sex is acceptable and erotic.

Great post. Some of these points are unproven and/or debatable, but all of them are at least plausible, common-sense, non-religious reasons for avoiding pornography.