Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News

[Donuthole]

Found out a while back that our former stake president was accused of child molestation. Apparently it was true because he shot himself.

Awful. I get truly saddened hearing how often this has happened. When it seems unfathomable to me that someone in those positions would do those things, I have to remind myself that the people being called to these stations are just people, and they we should not be putting leaders on a pedestal or assuming their general goodness just because of their calling.

most are great, but all are humans, and some humans are not great.

[BigFatMeanie]

These just feel like different stations on the main floor of disturbation. But that’s just me.

FWIW, you would be surprised the number of people who don’t believe in general civil damages. Or at least don’t until something bad happens to them. I get these people kicked off my juries all the time. They are usually all nutters of some kind (sovereign citizen types are the most common) but every so often there is someone who seems completely normal, intelligent and otherwise just can’t bring themselves to award damages.

Going down the tangent of general civil damages, I think they're appropriate in certain circumstances but I also think there are far too many people who feel there must always be someone to blame when bad things happen. Sometimes bad things happen and it's nobody's fault and nobody was negligent and nobody could have or should have known or foreseen, etc.

I'll never be a fan of plaintiff's bar because I think it's overpopulated with bottom-feeders who chase after deep pockets no matter the circumstances (present company excepted of course ), but I acknowledge the civil courts have a purpose and people have a right to sue for redress. I guess you could say I'm a "cautious" or "wary" acknowledger of the concept of general civil damages. SJBH...

[Donuthole]

Going down the tangent of general civil damages, I think they're appropriate in certain circumstances but I also think there are far too many people who feel there must always be someone to blame when bad things happen. Sometimes bad things happen and it's nobody's fault and nobody was negligent and nobody could have or should have known or foreseen, etc.

I'll never be a fan of plaintiff's bar because I think it's overpopulated with bottom-feeders who chase after deep pockets no matter the circumstances (present company excepted of course ), but I acknowledge the civil courts have a purpose and people have a right to sue for redress. I guess you could say I'm a "cautious" or "wary" acknowledger of the concept of general civil damages. SJBH...

You’re not alone. There are many people who feel similarly. These are often people who believe they are really, really fair, but when you ask them a few questions, it’s clear they are starting out from a position that places the defense in a starting position ahead (sometimes slightly ahead, often times way ahead) of the plaintiff. The honest ones recognize their bias and admit it, and they get dismissed for cause. The dishonest ones continue to believe that they are the fairest of the fair, even after being shown that they are not. I can usually get these ones off for cause as well, but sometimes the judge doesn’t let me drill down enough to fully expose the bias, and I end up having to use a peremptory strike.

[Green Monstah]

Awful. I get truly saddened hearing how often this has happened. When it seems unfathomable to me that someone in those positions would do those things, I have to remind myself that the people being called to these stations are just people, and they we should not be putting leaders on a pedestal or assuming their general goodness just because of their calling.

most are great, but all are humans, and some humans are not great.

All true.

But there’s certainly a difference between not perfect and predation.

I kinda wish we’d just stop pretending to have special access to revelation. It would be more honest and less manipulative.

[Jeff Lebowski]

All true.

But there’s certainly a difference between not perfect and predation.

I kinda wish we’d just stop pretending to have special access to revelation. It would be more honest and less manipulative.

That's a special kind of cynicism.

[Green Monstah]

That's a special kind of cynicism.

Rooted in experience.

[falafel]

In rural Mormon towns in AZ, I think you’d be shocked how much sexual abuse has occurred. Not all are leader-subordinate, but plenty of abuse among LDS family members.

Google Bruce O’dell master slave urine. He played the organ at my uncles funeral shortly before he was indicted. Another uncle was the stake president that called him to be a bishop.

I almost delayed my mission because I was so shaken up over how my uncle could feel inspired to call a predator as a bishop.

A decadenlayer, I sadly learned my grandpa grandpa (a former juvenile detention officer) and several of his brothers were predators. And my uncles (as a bishop and stake president) would have perps confront their victims in bishops/SP’s office and basically gaslight the victim. That tactic was also used on a sibling of mine who accused a family member. It’s all so fucked up.

The church is 100x better than it was pre-internet era. But it bugs the shit out of me that they will not notify cops of abuse in states where reporting isn’t mandatory.

That is a truly bizarre and terrible story.

[LVAllen]

The church is 100x better than it was pre-internet era. But it bugs the shit out of me that they will not notify cops of abuse in states where reporting isn’t mandatory.

I could be wrong, but I thought they do. The only exception is when the only notice of abuse came from a confession directly from the perpetrator to a bishop. In all other cases, I'm pretty sure the direction is to report to law enforcement and let the perpetrator fry.

[Green Monstah]

I could be wrong, but I thought they do. The only exception is when the only notice of abuse came from a confession directly from the perpetrator to a bishop. In all other cases, I'm pretty sure the direction is to report to law enforcement and let the perpetrator fry.

it’s been awhile since I did a deep dive, but you could be right. I still don’t love the confession exception (we’ve seen instances in the last few years where the abuse continued post confession, but at least there’s some semi-legitimate policy grounds for it, especially if you think confessing is necessary for forgiveness.

[Green Monstah]

That is a truly bizarre and terrible story.

Yep. He fled the country and lived in Mexico until he ran out of money. He tried flying in to SD and got nabbed.

And the news coverage is fairly tame. I know one of his victims, and it was really sad how messed up the kid was for many years.

[tooblue]

Rooted in experience.

My experience is completely different. I am also a survivor of sexual abuse as a child.

[falafel]

My experience is completely different. I am also a survivor of sexual abuse as a child.

So there must be a wide spectrum of responses those who have been abused.

[Green Monstah]

Respectfully, there are sound decisions made in the church. Whether they’re inspired or not is unrelated to one’s sexual-abuse status. But, the fact that leaders as high as GAs have been popped for having sex with the minors is simply evidence that God isn’t whispering in anyone’s ear. Not at the highest (or lowest) levels of the church. We’re all just winging it. The closer we get toward sound decision making and further from “God wants this” the better off we’ll be as a community. It won’t stop predators. But at least they won’t seemingly have God’s stamp of approval.

[Northwestcoug]

Respectfully, there are sound decisions made in the church. Whether they’re inspired or not is unrelated to one’s sexual-abuse status. But, the fact that leaders as high as GAs have been popped for having sex with the minors is simply evidence that God isn’t whispering in anyone’s ear. Not at the highest (or lowest) levels of the church. We’re all just winging it. The closer we get toward sound decision making and further from “God wants this” the better off we’ll be as a community. It won’t stop predators. But at least they won’t seemingly have God’s stamp of approval.

Far be it from me to cut some slack to church leaders about this, but as heinous as child sexual abuse is, in your paradigm wouldn't the existence of any sin that harms others in church leaders negate inspiration in callings? At what point do we ignore personal agency when dealing with church leaders who fall?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Respectfully, there are sound decisions made in the church. Whether they’re inspired or not is unrelated to one’s sexual-abuse status. But, the fact that leaders as high as GAs have been popped for having sex with the minors is simply evidence that God isn’t whispering in anyone’s ear. Not at the highest (or lowest) levels of the church. We’re all just winging it. The closer we get toward sound decision making and further from “God wants this” the better off we’ll be as a community. It won’t stop predators. But at least they won’t seemingly have God’s stamp of approval.

With all due respect, this is grossly simplistic view of both agency and theodicy.