Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News

[old_gregg]

<sigh> I'll give you my best attempt at a thought-out response:

You are correct that I have a conservative bent. You would be incorrect if you put me as an 'all taxation is theft' kind of guy. You are correct that I am OK with some level of taxation (forced taking) but my acceptance of that level, and of the form of distribution, varies greatly depending on the level of government that we're talking about. I would much prefer taxation and decisions about the purpose of tax money be made at the smallest levels of government when possible.

But none of that is really my beef with what you posted in this little "sub-thread". My beef is how you couch your position as a moral one, and is what I originally engaged you on:



You then repeated your assertions about morality at least twice more after your original statement. When you couch your public policy position in terms of morality, the implication is that anyone who disagrees with you is either amoral or somehow less moral than you. Your assertions about morality are a form of argumentum ad populum (because nobody wants to be painted as less moral) and a form of argumentum ad vericundiam (in this case the authority you are pointing to is "moral authority").

It's also a very divisive stance.The tactic of "cloaking with morality" used by churches and other groups taking positions on various social issues is what ticks off many progressives and makes their heads explode. Frankly, from my perspective, those who try to make a moral argument about their preferred tax policies are simply the other side of the same coin as the phony bible-thumper Trumper.

So if you want to discuss aspects of public policy and taxation and what makes the most economic sense and what the most appropriate levels and purposes of taxation are, then great. But when you immediately make the claim that your position is the moral position then you essentially shut down most prospects for any discussion.

Best,

BFM

oh boy thank you so much for the thought-out response and latin

[All-American]

oh boy thank you so much for the thought-out response and latin

This, but unironically

[Northwestcoug]

This is an interesting philosophical debate. I think everyone would agree that we need to have equal opportunity for all and that everyone benefits from a robust economy. So if some people take those circumstances and succeed to a very high degree, is that a moral failing of society? Or should we say that everyone has a right to succeed, as long as you don't succeed too much? Pithy statements like "The presence of billionaires is a moral failing of society" might resonate with many people, but putting that in practice is problematic. Is our economy really a zero sum game?

That pithy comment is more of my election slogan. I do think that equality of opportunity in a robust economy is of vital importance. I do not begrudge economic success at all, just when it is restricted/hampered in some groups. The gap between our perception and reality of upward social mobility in the US is glaring.

If I had to flesh it out, I'd say that the presence of billionaires is a moral failing of society when generational and other societal factors that led to said bazillions are not available to all in society. I'm sure there's some solid CRT underpinnings in there. But since it's such a dirty word currently I'll work on the verbiage for later.

[old_gregg]

generational and other societal factors that led to said bazillions are not available to all in society.

like what (other than the waltons and maybe elon)?

[Northwestcoug]

like what (other than the waltons and maybe elon)?

I'd turn that question around. What billionaires do you know that didn't have access to favorable social conditions, access to generational wealth (not necessarily rich family but money nonetheless), etc.?

And this isn't a class warfare thing. Billionaires work hard and deserve a lot of what they get. But in most instances they have access to a leg-up that most of society doesn't.

[old_gregg]

I'd turn that question around. What billionaires do you know that didn't have access to favorable social conditions, access to generational wealth (not necessarily rich family but money nonetheless), etc.?

And this isn't a class warfare thing. Billionaires work hard and deserve a lot of what they get. But in most instances they have access to a leg-up that most of society doesn't.

huh? wrong direction on the burden of proof. but, here are a few:

bezos
gates
zuck
buffett
ellison
ballmer
page
brin
bloomberg
knight
adelson
simons
schwarzman
dell
dalio
cohen
schwab
icahn

[All-American]

huh? wrong direction on the burden of proof. but, here are a few:

bezos
gates
zuck
buffett
ellison
ballmer
page
brin
bloomberg
knight
adelson
simons
schwarzman
dell
dalio
cohen
schwab
icahn

You know all those people? Geez, I need to start sending you Christmas cards.

[Northwestcoug]

huh? wrong direction on the burden of proof. but, here are a few:

bezos
gates
zuck
buffett
ellison
ballmer
page
brin
bloomberg
knight
adelson
simons
schwarzman
dell
dalio
cohen
schwab
icahn

Good list of people who what worked hard to get where they’re at.

Is there anyone on that list that didn’t benefit from an environment that’s not widely available to all?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Good list of people who what worked hard to get where they’re at.

Is there anyone on that list that didn’t benefit from an environment that’s not widely available to all?

Every one of those folks started out as a poor black kid in the projects.

[old_gregg]

Good list of people who what worked hard to get where they’re at.

Is there anyone on that list that didn’t benefit from an environment that’s not widely available to all?

I don’t know what that means. many of them come from poor, working class backgrounds—is that an experience we should make sure everyone has? with a couple of exceptions, billionaires are not people who inherit wealth or who had elite educational experiences.

[clackamascoug]

Billionaires that inherit money - eventually make great millionaires.

[Northwestcoug]

Every one of those folks started out as a poor black kid in the projects.

I don’t know what that means. many of them come from poor, working class backgrounds—is that an experience we should make sure everyone has? with a couple of exceptions, billionaires are not people who inherit wealth or who had elite educational experiences.

Without looking into it I'll take your word that there's some of these that came from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds and didn't go to Ivy League schools. And they overcame significant odds to be where they are today. That's beside my point. At some point along the way most of them were able to take advantage of societal benefits not available to everyone. From generational wealth (not talking about riches) achieved by parents, relatively decent education, a favorable justice system that didn't trip them up early in life, favorable access to capital, etc. Those are benefits not available to everyone. In a different era, someone said it less elegantly, 'you didn't build that'. But it's not that far from the truth.

Look, all this is me saying I think the true extent of social mobility in the US is very far away from our perception of it, and there's still significant structural issues impeding too many people here. And it's not just a racial issue, there's plenty of poor white people who don't have access to the dream. The societal fixes on my wish list require a lot of cash. And those rich bastards can afford to pay more to fund utopia!

[old_gregg]

Without looking into it I'll take your word that there's some of these that came from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds and didn't go to Ivy League schools.

why are these things exclusive

At some point along the way most of them were able to take advantage of societal benefits not available to everyone. From generational wealth (not talking about riches) achieved by parents, relatively decent education, a favorable justice system that didn't trip them up early in life, favorable access to capital, etc. Those are benefits not available to everyone. In a different era, someone said it less elegantly, 'you didn't build that'. But it's not that far from the truth.

how do you make these benefits available to everyone? is there some kind of entitlement to getting a seed round? do people have better access to education and capital because they're better at what they do? at what point do you intervene to level the playing field?

Look, all this is me saying I think the true extent of social mobility in the US is very far away from our perception of it, and there's still significant structural issues impeding too many people here. And it's not just a racial issue, there's plenty of poor white people who don't have access to the dream. The societal fixes on my wish list require a lot of cash. And those rich bastards can afford to pay more to fund utopia!

nobody is saying that the average person can become a billionaire. the point is that almost no billionaires are billionaires because they inherit it or come from exceptional circumstances. the class warfare circlejerk is dumb.

[clackamascoug]

If allowed - I'd like to share my thoughts on this subject - as I may be closer to it than most of you.

I may become a billionaire by 2025. On paper for sure - but also with a solid nine figure cash liquidity by then. Two partners and I are launching our startup in Jan 2022.

I don't think it's possible for the "average person" to become a billionaire. Average people - have average thoughts. Average people have average access to resources. Average people are too caught up in their own ego to "hand the baby off" to another set of hands. Average people have no clue of the million steps it takes to go from idea - to - net income.

And yet you guys know me - mostly - as a dullard - unsophisticated - and an average person as compared to the best and the brightest on this board. But why do I have a shot? I have a shot because I think differently than the average person - I have had enough financial success in my life to have developed relationships with other successful people who also have developed important relationships. Relationships is the key from moving from millionaire to billionaire. The average person does not have that foundation. The three of us are able to self fund the project without outside investment. - Average people don't get money from VC's - average people can't self fund a million dollars.

Educated and very successful people are the worst candidates to become billionaires. They get on the career track and get so comfortable in their day-to-day lives, that they put aside the dreams and show up to work each morning and pull the plow for another ten hours - and then their families suck the rest of their time till midnight when it starts over. In the long run they will become millionaires - and find themselves safe and sound - but not G650 billionaires.

Covid was my ticket. At 61, I could ride out the pandemic for a couple or three years - wife left me alone - I stayed home - and put on my data scientist hat. Rather than waste time - I decided to build a project - what could I do? Took me two weeks to land on an idea - took me two months to craft it into detail - presented it to two business partners of the past - we incorporated - and from March of 2020 till Jan 2022 we have been working on building our web enterprise. We subbed our code to a company in Vancouver BC - who has since become a minor partner - and as of today - we are right on track. It's amazing really.

I've alluded to my project through some posts - and I'm not boasting here - just saying that I'm at home plate - got a bat in my hand - am pointing to left field - and am about to foul a couple of pitches before I connect in 2022. Yes - I think of myself as average - and yet I'm in the midst of building something that has the potential to be way beyond average.

So my contribution to this conversation is this - the puzzle pieces are on the ground - ready to be picked up - but the average person will have no clue what to do with a single puzzle piece. You have to be above average to know how to put it all together. You have to have time to put it all together. You're willing to risk your financial future - and because you're not average - you roll the dice.

baby needs new shoes

[BigPiney]

Hope it works out. Sounds like something way outside my comfort zone.