Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News

[falafel]

I think evidence showing they shot him in the flank or abdomen when his hands were up would look pretty bad, even though I can't disagree with the use of deadly force.

I certainly thought the little dance he did after he put his hands up seemed odd. I don't know where his gun was, or if he was attempting to get his gun. The story that he hands were up and that he only put them down after he was shot is just as plausible based on the video evidence as the explanation that he was trying to remove his gun. Like others have said, if he wanted to go down in a blaze of glory shooting as he went it made no sense to exit the vehicle without a gun in hand and put his hands in the air.

Evidence indicating he was shot in the abdomen would certain lend itself to the narrative being peddled by the Bundys that he had his hands up and was shot. When else would he have been gut shot if not when his hands were up? His hands were up, they came down to his side as he danced and began to circle and then he was obviously shot in the head. Another reasonable explanation is that they attempted to use bean bags or something else to subdue him and he put his hands down, rather than following commands, and ended up getting shot.

I don't think the FBI did anything wrong, but I don't think the video evidence from a helicopter is clear cut. While the FBI narrative is certainly reasonable and the shooting was justified, I don't think the explanation that he was going for his gun after exiting the SUV makes much sense. That being said he was probably pretty disoriented from the both the fight or flight response from the high speed escape attempt and the subsequent crash.

Maybe the FBI agent thought they were going to hit his vehicle, but he certainly dashed the wrong direction, even if one SUV had struck the other, where he went was directly into the area that one vehicle or the other was going to end up. Split second decisions are difficult and whether he was trying to stop the SUV or get out of the way he chose the wrong way.

Wait, you don't think someone can be shot in the gut unless they have their hands up?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think evidence showing they shot him in the flank or abdomen when his hands were up would look pretty bad, even though I can't disagree with the use of deadly force.

I certainly thought the little dance he did after he put his hands up seemed odd. I don't know where his gun was, or if he was attempting to get his gun. The story that he hands were up and that he only put them down after he was shot is just as plausible based on the video evidence as the explanation that he was trying to remove his gun. Like others have said, if he wanted to go down in a blaze of glory shooting as he went it made no sense to exit the vehicle without a gun in hand and put his hands in the air.

Evidence indicating he was shot in the abdomen would certain lend itself to the narrative being peddled by the Bundys that he had his hands up and was shot. When else would he have been gut shot if not when his hands were up? His hands were up, they came down to his side as he danced and began to circle and then he was obviously shot in the head. Another reasonable explanation is that they attempted to use bean bags or something else to subdue him and he put his hands down, rather than following commands, and ended up getting shot.

I don't think the FBI did anything wrong, but I don't think the video evidence from a helicopter is clear cut. While the FBI narrative is certainly reasonable and the shooting was justified, I don't think the explanation that he was going for his gun after exiting the SUV makes much sense. That being said he was probably pretty disoriented from the both the fight or flight response from the high speed escape attempt and the subsequent crash.

Maybe the FBI agent thought they were going to hit his vehicle, but he certainly dashed the wrong direction, even if one SUV had struck the other, where he went was directly into the area that one vehicle or the other was going to end up. Split second decisions are difficult and whether he was trying to stop the SUV or get out of the way he chose the wrong way.

He could have been shot in the abdomen with his hands up or down. And they could have shot him in the head with his hands up. That isn't evidence of anything.

And why does it not make sense that he is going for his gun? He was refusing orders, yelling, and reaching for his waist. Watch this video (slo-mo and zoomed).

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...footage_o.html

According to one of the passengers in the truck, he was taunting the cops to shoot him (yelling "shoot me").

[Uncle Ted]

He could have been shot in the abdomen with his hands up or down. And they could have shot him in the head with his hands up. That isn't evidence of anything.

And why does it not make sense that he is going for his gun? He was refusing orders, yelling, and reaching for his waist. Watch this video (slo-mo and zoomed).

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...footage_o.html

According to one of the passengers in the truck, he was taunting the cops to shoot him (yelling "shoot me").

Do they still give out those Darwin Awards?

[smokymountainrain]

Wait, you don't think someone can be shot in the gut unless they have their hands up?

TTC seems pretty smart, but yeah, this is baffling.

[YOhio]

TTC seems pretty smart, but yeah, this is baffling.

He is the smartest graduate from Helper Jr High that posts on this board.

[TexTechCoug]

TTC seems pretty smart, but yeah, this is baffling.

Of course you can be shot just about anywhere in any position. He could have been shot in the abdomen after he fell and at any point during the encounter.

I don't, however, think the video is all that conclusive. The encounter is short and the explanation that he was shot with his hands up is no less plausible after watching the video. What I intended to say, and obviously failed to convey, is that if he were to have been shot in the flank it would lend credibility to the story that he had his hands up when he was shot, leading him to dropping his arms to his side, when he was fatally shot in the head. Do I think the Bundys are credible, no, but I think that version of the story isn't debunked by the video. The frame-by-frame zoomed stuff is no better because it doesn't really add any detail.

Without better resolution and audio you can't be sure when the shooting began, when and if he was shot when his hands were still up. Per the FBI he was shot multiple times, and given the situation the shooting was justified. The video doesn't do anything to debunk the story that he was first shot when his hands were up.

He is the smartest graduate from Helper Jr High that posts on this board.

That is a rare praise.

[Omaha 680]

I don't know where his hands were when he was shot. Hands up, hands down, in the pockets, behind his back, somewhere else. But that's entirely beside the point. Based on his own public statements about an expected confrontation with law enforcement, the nature of the chase, and the near 100% certainty that he was armed, he represented an imminent threat to every officer there the minute he jumped out of the truck. Do they have to wait until he actually produces the loaded weapon that was in his pocket before they defend themselves? Absolutely not in my opinion. The only thing he could have done to make the shooting unjustified was immediately freeze, put his hands on his head or in the air, and comply with orders. His erratic behavior and hand movement made it a very dangerous situation for the officers given the known circumstances.

[Bo Diddley]

That was a righteous shooting. Anyone who says otherwise is dumb.

[Donuthole]

I don't know where his hands were when he was shot. Hands up, hands down, in the pockets, behind his back, somewhere else. But that's entirely beside the point. Based on his own public statements about an expected confrontation with law enforcement, the nature of the chase, and the near 100% certainty that he was armed, he represented an imminent threat to every officer there the minute he jumped out of the truck. Do they have to wait until he actually produces the loaded weapon that was in his pocket before they defend themselves? Absolutely not in my opinion. The only thing he could have done to make the shooting unjustified was immediately freeze, put his hands on his head or in the air, and comply with orders. His erratic behavior and hand movement made it a very dangerous situation for the officers given the known circumstances.

So is beside the point, or is it the point? Make up your mind!

[old_gregg]

i bet ipu is really conflicted about this

[Omaha 680]

So is beside the point, or is it the point? Make up your mind!

The exact location of his hands the moment the first trigger was pulled is irrelevant, due to his erratic behavior and the circumstances of the confrontation. That isn't what I said?

[Jarid in Cedar]

He is the smartest graduate from Helper Jr High that posts on this board.

[SeattleUte]

Is anyone other than the lunatic fringe claiming the cops murdered him?

[ERCougar]

The myth of cowboy individualism:
http://theweek.com/articles/598529/s...wboy-socialism

[USUC]

The myth of cowboy individualism:
http://theweek.com/articles/598529/s...wboy-socialism

I get the point he is making but framing the disagreement between ranchers and the BLM being based on an idealistic throwback to a bygone era is ridiculous. Its a bit more complicated than he is letting on. I'm not sure what his exact definition of socialism is, but this reeks of sensationalism with his use of it. This article reminds me a bit of the "You didn't build that" speech by Obama. Also, the success of the Mormon setters is a glaring omission to his point.