Fast Offerings

[ERCougar]

I heard on Mormon stories a while back that the net flow of church fast offering funds is INTO the United States, i.e. US members use more fast offering funds than they donate. Can anyone confirm this?

[SteelBlue]

I heard on Mormon stories a while back that the net flow of church fast offering funds is INTO the United States, i.e. US members use more fast offering funds than they donate. Can anyone confirm this?

I can confirm that I've heard 2 different High Council speakers tell me this same thing over the past 10 years. Not much proof, but others seem to have the same idea.

[The Rambam]

I wonder how many Bishops are making $5000+ house payments in December for $700K+ homes in Draper and Highland and such.

I also wonder how many Kenyan and Bolivian and Vietnamese and Nigerian and Mexican Saints are going hungry and without education this school year.

Nevermind--I'm heading downtown to enjoy the Temple Square Light Extravaganza and gorge at the all-you-can-eat $36/plate "Gourmet Dinner Buffet" at the Roof Restaurant. (While on hold to check the price for the buffet, you will be happy to know that interspersed with the jazzed up Christmas classics they ran ads for the on-site floral arrangement business.) Yippeeeee!

Arise, Oh Glorious Zion indeed!

[il Padrino Ute]

I wonder how many Bishops are making $5000+ house payments in December for $700K+ homes in Draper and Highland and such.

I also wonder how many Kenyan and Bolivian and Vietnamese and Nigerian and Mexican Saints are going hungry and without education this school year.

Nevermind--I'm heading downtown to enjoy the Temple Square Light Extravaganza and gorge at the all-you-can-eat $36/plate "Gourmet Dinner Buffet" at the Roof Restaurant. (While on hold to check the price for the buffet, you will be happy to know that interspersed with the jazzed up Christmas classics they ran ads for the on-site floral arrangement business.) Yippeeeee!

Arise, Oh Glorious Zion indeed!

Rambam, if you're unhappy with what you think you see in Utah, why not retire, move to a 3rd World country and do what you demand the LDS church do?

[ERCougar]

Adam, if you're unhappy with what you think you see in Utah, why not retire, move to a 3rd World country and do what you demand the LDS church do?

I didn't really want to start an argument here, nor did I want to turn this into a church-bashing thread. I live in a fairly wealthy ward, much of the money made through construction, and I'd be very curious to see how many people are overextended right now with the drop in home building. We live in one of the smallest houses in the ward and I would guess we have a larger income than most, at least now. My wife was in on a conversation with some friends--all good people that I like--who were discussing preparedness recommendations from the church, and it came up that nearly every person in that circle was living paycheck-to-paycheck, with virtually no savings built up. My wife was just floored, as I know several of these families make 6 figure salaries (doctors at the hospital where I work) and the others certainly live like they do, as far as I can tell. Call me the bad son in the parable, but it does bug me a little that there's a chance these people are taking fast offering funds, when so many go hungry in the world.

If this tidbit about the church membership in the US is true, we should be ashamed.

[The Rambam]

Adam, if you're unhappy with what you think you see in Utah, why not retire, move to a 3rd World country and do what you demand the LDS church do?

I am personally actively involved in third world education efforts. I also pay tithing which subsidizes The Roof Restaurant and the Temple Square lights and the entire downtown SLC revitalization project. I also pay fast offerings which subsidizes the mortgages on many McMansions. Unfortunately none of my tithing or fast offerings goes to the Perpetual Education Fund--I have to donate separately for that.

And why are you trying to link The Rambam to some long dead Adam? There is no link. And any attempts to uncover the modern personification of The Rambam will result in The Rambam's immediate death. So kill him if you wish. Or choose to focus on the issues de jour.

Let me help you. The issue of this thread is set forth in the title of the founding post: "Fast Offerings". Specificly the possibility that the American Church consumes a disproportionate share of the fast offering pie. Any opinion on the subject?

[creekster]

I have heard both that the US is a net consumer and that it is a net provider. I have no idea which is true. I do know with a high degree of certainty that my ward used to be a huge net provider and due to recent reverses for some people is not abotu even. My ward is a mix of incomes and is solid middle class.

I think crticism of the temple square light display is rather petty. THat having been said, I suspect there are ways that the churhc could be more efficient inuse of its fuinds, but I fail to see that as the source of the problem. The real issue inmy mind is the one raised by ERcougar, whcih is the personal money management techniques of church members. I find the money problems of many members to be embarrassing. We are a wealthy people yet seem unable to save and preare for our own needs. It should be addressed in each family.

[il Padrino Ute]

I am personally actively involved in third world education efforts. I also pay tithing which subsidizes The Roof Restaurant and the Temple Square lights and the entire downtown SLC revitalization project. I also pay fast offerings which subsidizes the mortgages on many McMansions. Unfortunately none of my tithing or fast offerings goes to the Perpetual Education Fund--I have to donate separately for that.

And why are you trying to link The Rambam to some long dead Adam? There is no link. And any attempts to uncover the modern personification of The Rambam will result in The Rambam's immediate death. So kill him if you wish. Or choose to focus on the issues de jour.

Let me help you. The issue of this thread is set forth in the title of the founding post: "Fast Offerings". Specificly the possibility that the American Church consumes a disproportionate share of the fast offering pie. Any opinion on the subject?

I too, donate to the perpetual education fund and my tithing as well goes to the things that you point out.

My question is relevant to the subject in that you are pointing out that you believe the LDS church should do more to ignore the members in Utah and give more to those who are truly in need. I don't necessarily disagree, but I often wonder why those who complain the most don't put their money where their mouth is.

You could retire and move to a third world and spend all your resources helping those who need it, could you not? Then you would be doing more than just pointing out where you feel the church is wrong.

[CardiacCoug]

I wonder how many Bishops are making $5000+ house payments in December for $700K+ homes in Draper and Highland and such.

I also wonder how many Kenyan and Bolivian and Vietnamese and Nigerian and Mexican Saints are going hungry and without education this school year.

Nevermind--I'm heading downtown to enjoy the Temple Square Light Extravaganza and gorge at the all-you-can-eat $36/plate "Gourmet Dinner Buffet" at the Roof Restaurant. (While on hold to check the price for the buffet, you will be happy to know that interspersed with the jazzed up Christmas classics they ran ads for the on-site floral arrangement business.) Yippeeeee!

Arise, Oh Glorious Zion indeed!

Would $20 million have done much to help Saints in the third world? Good thing there was a more productive use for those funds in California.

[BigFatMeanie]

I am personally actively involved in third world education efforts. I also pay tithing which subsidizes The Roof Restaurant and the Temple Square lights and the entire downtown SLC revitalization project. I also pay fast offerings which subsidizes the mortgages on many McMansions. Unfortunately none of my tithing or fast offerings goes to the Perpetual Education Fund--I have to donate separately for that.

And why are you trying to link The Rambam to some long dead Adam? There is no link. And any attempts to uncover the modern personification of The Rambam will result in The Rambam's immediate death. So kill him if you wish. Or choose to focus on the issues de jour.

Let me help you. The issue of this thread is set forth in the title of the founding post: "Fast Offerings". Specificly the possibility that the American Church consumes a disproportionate share of the fast offering pie. Any opinion on the subject?

My opinion on the subject:

The claim that the net flow of fast offerings is into the U.S. is pure unadulterated bullshit. Because neither of us have access to official church financial documents, neither of us can prove our opinion to be correct. For every anecdote you throw out I'll throw out a countering anecdote.

I'll share another opinion: Your bitterness, viciousness, and disrespect will always come back to meet you in the end. You will most certainly reap what we sow.

[RobinFinderson]

Interesting. I thought The Rambam was an angry apostate. I wasn't going to criticize him, because having once been an angry apostate, I understand that it is a pretty typical phase through which many apostates pass.

But now that I know that The Rambam is a tithe-paying member, I appreciate his anger. For some time, before leaving, I had hoped that by speaking out against the problems I saw in the church, I could help to change it to make it better. Eventually I realized that changing Mormon church culture was not what I cared to dedicate a good chunk of my life to, and I quit. But I still have a great appreciation for the gadfly who struggles from within. If the member can't be critical of his/her own church, to which the member gives more than 10% of income and no small dedication of time and talent, then who can?

More significantly, The Rambam's griping is interesting. Props for that.

[The Rambam]

My opinion on the subject:

The claim that the net flow of fast offerings is into the U.S. is pure unadulterated bullshit. Because neither of us have access to official church financial documents, neither of us can prove our opinion to be correct. For every anecdote you throw out I'll throw out a countering anecdote.

I'll share another opinion: Your bitterness, viciousness, and disrespect will always come back to meet you in the end. You will most certainly reap what we sow.

This issue was raised by Stephen Robinson in a NT class I took from him at BYU. He talked specificly about his brother-in-law who was a Bishop in Sandy who was making a number of house payments of large mansions during a previous downturn. This bothered Robinson because of the great need of Saints around the world. Would it be so bad, he asked, if the Sandy family had to move to a smaller house in Murray or West Valley?

The actual percentage of fast offering funds contributed and consumed by the American Church is interesting, but more interesting is the question: Does the American Church consume too much of the fast offering pie?

Do you believe there is any room for a member so ask such a question? Or is our job to just shut up and accept whatever comes out of Church HQ? If you think it is OK for us to discuss, please join the discussion. If you think we have no right to an opinion on matters such as this, then this probably isn't a good place for you to read threads.

And I am not bitter, just passionate. I'm not vicious, just blunt; not disrespectful, just understanding that they put their pants on one leg at at time and figure it out just like the rest of us.

I am teaching Gospel Doctrine in eight days on the first half of Ether. The lesson manual focuses on how Jehovah doesn't solve the light problem, but tells Monhonri to go figure it out. He goes and comes up with the white rock solution and then see's the finger of God. The point of the manual is that we are to go figure out the answer to our own prayers and God will help us when the solution is beyond our means.

The gospel I believe in follows this tract. The Prophets today, like the Brother of Jared of old, figure it out for themselves and only very occasionally does God directly intervene--and even then only when the Prophet can't accomplish the thing for themselves. That is how it works. And sometimes when they are figuring things out the Prophets get it wrong for a while (or a decade or two or three). Not because they aren't Prophets, but because they are human.

[CardiacCoug]

Interesting. I thought The Rambam was an angry apostate. I wasn't going to criticize him, because having once been an angry apostate, I understand that it is a pretty typical phase through which many apostates pass.

But now that I know that The Rambam is a tithe-paying member, I appreciate his anger. For some time, before leaving, I had hoped that by speaking out against the problems I saw in the church, I could help to change it to make it better. Eventually I realized that changing Mormon church culture was not what I cared to dedicate a good chunk of my life to, and I quit. But I still have a great appreciation for the gadfly who struggles from within. If the member can't be critical of his/her own church, to which the member gives more than 10% of income and no small dedication of time and talent, then who can?

More significantly, The Rambam's griping is interesting. Props for that.

You consider apostacy to be the fully evolved state for people like The Rambam, but I disagree.

People can come to a comfortable equilibrium where they take advantage of and contribute to the many good fruits of the Church and disregard that which is wrong or useless. I don't think you have to "dedicate a good chunk of your life" to changing Mormon culture if you choose to stay in the Church while recognizing its many faults.

Every organized religion contains hypocrisy and superstition. Belonging to any church (or no church) is always a trade-off between positives and negatives, in my opinion.

[The Rambam]

You consider apostacy to be the fully evolved state for people like The Rambam, but I disagree.

People can come to a comfortable equilibrium where they take advantage of and contribute to the many good fruits of the Church and disregard that which is wrong or useless. I don't think you have to "dedicate a good chunk of your life" to changing Mormon culture if you choose to stay in the Church while recognizing its many faults.

Every organized religion contains hypocrisy and superstition. Belonging to any church (or no church) is always a trade-off between positives and negatives, in my opinion.

I agree with your analysis in regards to social benefits that come from being a part of the community.

I might in the end stay for the social benefits it it came to that, but it hasn't. I actually believe because of sacred personal experience. There is no where else to go. Joseph was actually called of God. Knowing this, there is no where else to go.

[SteelBlue]

More significantly, The Rambam's griping is interesting. Props for that.

This I absolutely agree with. Nobody does it better.