Wear Pants to Church Day

[Moliere]

We were involved in a seat saving incident last week in sacrament meeting, it was awesome. It also taught me this valuable lesson...no slight too small for me!

Deets please! Were there fisticuffs?

[Mrs. Funk]

Deets please! Were there fisticuffs?

Yes! How is this the first we're hearing of a sacrament meeting brawl?

[jay santos]

The mission age thing is going to go down as a huge milestone in the LDS equality for women movement.

Within a few years, we will see the young women's message being the exact same as the young men's message: prepare for a mission.

Young women will go on missions at the same rate as young men. Gone will be the arrogance and unequal playing field that RM males have over non RM females that starts with dating and marriage and rolls into Ward Council. Mission leadership will evolve over time such that female DL's and ZL's have same responsibility as male DL's and ZL's. There will be a lot of ramifications to this that all go in the direction of equality for women.

[Moliere]

The mission age thing is going to go down as a huge milestone in the LDS equality for women movement.

Within a few years, we will see the young women's message being the exact same as the young men's message: prepare for a mission.

Young women will go on missions at the same rate as young men. Gone will be the arrogance and unequal playing field that RM males have over non RM females that starts with dating and marriage and rolls into Ward Council. Mission leadership will evolve over time such that female DL's and ZL's have same responsibility as male DL's and ZL's. There will be a lot of ramifications to this that all go in the direction of equality for women.

So, as with most things, you are saying give it time and the process TSM has set will yield the desired results? You're probably right.

We had the sister missionaries over for dinner last week. They said their mission right now is 40% female and after the next couple transfers it will be an equal 50/50 split.

[Uncle Ted]

Deets please! Were there fisticuffs?

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...=1#post1027170

[jay santos]

So, as with most things, you are saying give it time and the process TSM has set will yield the desired results? You're probably right.

We had the sister missionaries over for dinner last week. They said their mission right now is 40% female and after the next couple transfers it will be an equal 50/50 split.

I do think that. I think that intention was not on the brethren's mind when they made the mission change, they might have even considered a downside of the policy. But in the end, I think it will be the biggest and most positive result of the policy.

[Uncle Ted]

The mission age thing is going to go down as a huge milestone in the LDS equality for women movement.

Within a few years, we will see the young women's message being the exact same as the young men's message: prepare for a mission.

Young women will go on missions at the same rate as young men. Gone will be the arrogance and unequal playing field that RM males have over non RM females that starts with dating and marriage and rolls into Ward Council. Mission leadership will evolve over time such that female DL's and ZL's have same responsibility as male DL's and ZL's. There will be a lot of ramifications to this that all go in the direction of equality for women.

Who knows... Women might even be given the priesthood again.

[DrumNFeather]

Deets please! Were there fisticuffs?

Yes! How is this the first we're hearing of a sacrament meeting brawl?

The short version is that our daughter was positioned behind the pianist for the primary program (which, she's 5, that was a bad call by them, but whatever), so we knew there was really a specific spot we needed to be for the primary program. So, we go and sit down, and someone taps me on my shoulder..."could you please move, the so and so's always sit there." To which I replied (channeling my inner nikuman) "not anymore." But they kept hassling us...basically saying they had already been there (no stuff there of course). So, we told them that we could only see our daughter from that spot (at this point, other spots similar had been taken). So they asked us if we could just scoot to the middle (with a 1 year old, and a daughter behind the piano, that made no sense). So we finally just got up and moved...stewing the whole time. The minute we got up, the lady behind us put her purse down where we were sitting...classy.

It eventually worked out because my daughter's teacher moved her so she could see us and we could see her. But the best part is that halfway through I look over, and these two rows of people are ASLEEP! We were pretty annoyed. I've never been asked to move because someone "always" sits in a spot. I mentioned this incident to the EQ pres, who is a good friend of mine, and he agreed that our families should start trying to occupy those two rows every week. Justice!

And, again, I learned that I just don't turn the other cheek very well.

[Uncle Ted]

The short version is that our daughter was positioned behind the pianist for the primary program (which, she's 5, that was a bad call by them, but whatever), so we knew there was really a specific spot we needed to be for the primary program. So, we go and sit down, and someone taps me on my shoulder..."could you please move, the so and so's always sit there." To which I replied (channeling my inner nikuman) "not anymore." But they kept hassling us...basically saying they had already been there (no stuff there of course). So, we told them that we could only see our daughter from that spot (at this point, other spots similar had been taken). So they asked us if we could just scoot to the middle (with a 1 year old, and a daughter behind the piano, that made no sense). So we finally just got up and moved...stewing the whole time. The minute we got up, the lady behind us put her purse down where we were sitting...classy.

It eventually worked out because my daughter's teacher moved her so she could see us and we could see her. But the best part is that halfway through I look over, and these two rows of people are ASLEEP! We were pretty annoyed. I've never been asked to move because someone "always" sits in a spot. I mentioned this incident to the EQ pres, who is a good friend of mine, and he agreed that our families should start trying to occupy those two rows every week. Justice!

And, again, I learned that I just don't turn the other cheek very well.

What? No brawl in the church parking lot?!? BORING.

[DrumNFeather]

What? No brawl in the church parking lot?!? BORING.

Well...not yet.

[Paperback Writer]

I do think that. I think that intention was not on the brethren's mind when they made the mission change, they might have even considered a downside of the policy. But in the end, I think it will be the biggest and most positive result of the policy.

While I agree and even look forward to such a change...I lack faith...forgive me mine unbelief. Consequently, I need a sign. I may believe if I see Sister ZL's presiding over Elders in the mission field.

Don't get me worong, I think such a change in the mission field would be positive. It's not like a male RM will never have a female manager. In my industry, that is very common. This sort of already happens in Primary with a female PP and male teachers. I was once in a ward with a large primary and there were more male primary teachers than female.

IMO, some stakes try harder than others to integrate females into leadership positions where they preside over men (other than in primary). For example, a female served as Scout Committee Chair. Part of the problem is finding women who are comfortable in that role and want to serve in that capacity. The woman in my example was an executive so she had exeprience presiding over men. However, I've met too many LDS woman who don't want to serve is such positions - they are not comfortable in a leadership role over men. Having Sister ZLs/DLs presiding over Elders would be a positive step towards reversing this.

[jay santos]

While I agree and even look forward to such a change...I lack faith...forgive me mine unbelief. Consequently, I need a sign. I may believe if I see Sister ZL's presiding over Elders in the mission field.

Don't get me worong, I think such a change in the mission field would be positive. It's not like a male RM will never have a female manager. In my industry, that is very common. This sort of already happens in Primary with a female PP and male teachers. I was once in a ward with a large primary and there were more male primary teachers than female.

IMO, some stakes try harder than others to integrate females into leadership positions where they preside over men (other than in primary). For example, a female served as Scout Committee Chair. Part of the problem is finding women who are comfortable in that role and want to serve in that capacity. The woman in my example was an executive so she had exeprience presiding over men. However, I've met too many LDS woman who don't want to serve is such positions - they are not comfortable in a leadership role over men. Having Sister ZLs/DLs presiding over Elders would be a positive step towards reversing this.

I don't think you'll see Sister ZL's presiding over elders until females have the priesthood, which will be at the end of the journey, not a step in the journey.

[Paperback Writer]

I don't think you'll see Sister ZL's presiding over elders until females have the priesthood, which will be at the end of the journey, not a step in the journey.

I don't want to start an argument - were on the same side of this. But this viewpoint is precisely what has to be overcome with or without female ordination. If I remember correctly, a ZL isn't even a calling in the tradional sense. I don't remember DLs/ZLs even being set apart by laying on of hands for thie position. So what does holding the priesthood have to do with being a ZL?

It's probably not the best example, but I'm trying to think of a youth co-ed organization. The only thing I can think of is orchestra, band, or some kind of club. Would it be fair to tell females that only males can be first chair, band leader, or club president? In other words, LDS are conditioned to think that only males can searve in leadership positions over other males. That's the kind of thinking that needs to change because I don't think priesthood has much to do with it when it comes to something like a ZL. IMO, if falls into the "unwritten order of things" BS. If a Sister can server as a DL or ZL over other Sisters, she can serve in the same capacity over Elders. Society has moved on and the LDS church needs to fundamentally change its thinking on this even if it doesn't take the leap to ordain women. Woman CEOs are a reality. It's ironic (may need a ruling here) that my sister-in-law can be CEO and be responsible to shareholders for a multi-million dollar budget but has to get Bishopric approval before funding a RS event on her budget. I hope this isn't the case for my teenage daughter.

[Surfah]

We never had sister ZL/DLs in my mission but we did have one sister who was invited to our ZLCs. She even spoke at one. She was the best missionary in our mission. The rest of the sisters were terrible. In their defense most were from foreign countries (Mongolia, Tonga, Samoa, S. Korea). The stellar sister was from Green River, WY.

[SCcoug]

I don't want to start an argument - were on the same side of this. But this viewpoint is precisely what has to be overcome with or without female ordination. If I remember correctly, a ZL isn't even a calling in the tradional sense. I don't remember DLs/ZLs even being set apart by laying on of hands for thie position. So what does holding the priesthood have to do with being a ZL?

It's probably not the best example, but I'm trying to think of a youth co-ed organization. The only thing I can think of is orchestra, band, or some kind of club. Would it be fair to tell females that only males can be first chair, band leader, or club president? In other words, LDS are conditioned to think that only males can searve in leadership positions over other males. That's the kind of thinking that needs to change because I don't think priesthood has much to do with it when it comes to something like a ZL. IMO, if falls into the "unwritten order of things" BS. If a Sister can server as a DL or ZL over other Sisters, she can serve in the same capacity over Elders. Society has moved on and the LDS church needs to fundamentally change its thinking on this even if it doesn't take the leap to ordain women. Woman CEOs are a reality. It's ironic (may need a ruling here) that my sister-in-law can be CEO and be responsible to shareholders for a multi-million dollar budget but has to get Bishopric approval before funding a RS event on her budget. I hope this isn't the case for my teenage daughter.

ZL and DL interview for baptism which most see as a priesthood responsibility.