The Bigots’ Last Hurrah

[TripletDaddy]

First off, to fall in line would indicate they weren't in line already. Sounds like they are like soldiers ready to do what the commander says. A member in Cal. may on their very own have come to the conclusion about Gay marriage in alignment with the churches position. Remember, even some non-mormons are not for gay marriage.

This is a very fair point and one that does not get enough run, imo.

It seems unfair to "blame" the Church, simply because most folks already had an opinion on gay marriage. The Church galvanized them, but it is pretty inaccurate (I am guessing) to say that absent Church directive, many people would have had no idea how to vote on Prop 8.

That tactic was a propaganda move by the No on 8 crowd. They needed to put a face on the monster, so the LDS church was pretty convenient.

[cowboy]

I think the rough framework of the argument is as such:

Churches should do religious marriages.
Government should do civil unions and stay entirely out of the marriage business.

If the gov extends "marriage" to one group, it has to have a legal basis for excluding another.

Those opposed to gay marriage mostly use personal moral/religious reasons for opposing the government from extending marriage to gays. There have been very few, if any, legal reasons given to deny gay marriage.

Like I said, this is a rough framework. It would be better to do a search on cougarguard, as the issue was beaten with a stick for months over there.

It is a good question, though.

And we have now found common ground. Now if we could only agree on the gay adoption issue

[byu71]

Huh? You don't even live in California.

I know I don't. The quote said "members fell in line", it didn't say California members fell in line. Maybe I missed the entirety of the article and somewhere earlier the journalist stated that all his references to members would be in terms of California members only.

I know Californians in general, LDS and non-LDS think the world revolves around them, but a lot of people don't.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I guess Miss California pretty much lost the Miss USA pageant at the Planet Hollywood casino last night for some crazy answer about why gay marriage was evil. Then outside there was nearly a fight.

Sadly I missed all the protesting and fighting that is being reported this morning on the radio here in Vegas, watching Elton John with my wife. It was a good show, and he had some fun stage props.
The song this one was from wasn't even about food, let alone fruit.

[TripletDaddy]

Thank you. I'll make you a deal. I'll respect your opinion if you respect mine. I'm not a bigot, and you're not an apostate. We both have valid reasons for our positions, but we disagree on this issue. I suspect we also disagree on the acceptability of Wranglers in a business setting.

ok, but I don't quite get that deal. Why would I be an apostate? I believe in the Church, the Gospel, and its ordinances. I am active, hold callings, go to the temple. If I were an apostate, I am doing a sucky job (nothing new there).

I do not use someone's stance on gay marriage as a barrier to fellowship. My wife voted Yes. It would be an unhappy household if I had serious disdain for opponents to gay marriage. I am also vastly outnumbered at Church on this issue, which is ok, too. I would like to think that for the most part, opponents to gay marriage could say the same thing about barriers to fellowship, but your categorizing me as "apostate" for my views makes me wonder. Maybe you were only kidding? Either way, no big deal.

In our home, this issue was not a Gettysburg event. If anything, it brought us closer together because we spent a lot of time talking about it. These days, we barely talk about it, although it did come up again because of the events in Iowa.

[TripletDaddy]

And we have now found common ground. Now if we could only agree on the gay adoption issue

If someone wants to adopt a gay person, I think they should have that right.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I know I don't. The quote said "members fell in line", it didn't say California members fell in line. Maybe I missed the entirety of the article and somewhere earlier the journalist stated that all his references to members would be in terms of California members only.

I know Californians in general, LDS and non-LDS think the world revolves around them, but a lot of people don't.

I assume that you are aware that prop 8 was a California initiative?

[smokymountainrain]

This is a very fair point and one that does not get enough run, imo.

It seems unfair to "blame" the Church, simply because most folks already had an opinion on gay marriage. The Church galvanized them, but it is pretty inaccurate (I am guessing) to say that absent Church directive, many people would have had no idea how to vote on Prop 8.

That tactic was a propaganda move by the No on 8 crowd. They needed to put a face on the monster, so the LDS church was pretty convenient.

Bingo. I would guess about 5% (and this might even be high) of members were actually swayed by Church directive.

Hell, I was a perfect candidate to be swayed - pretty much on the fence in terms of this issue, I generally try to obey church counsel, etc - yet at the end of the day, if I were in CA, I would have voted no on 8.

[il Padrino Ute]

I assume that you are aware that prop 8 was a California initiative?

Yet the blame for it passing is directed at Salt Lake City, not the Californians who voted to pass it.

[ERCougar]

Just out of curiosity, what were the reasons?

Kids catching the gay at elementary school or Mormons being forced to catch the gay at the temple?

I can totally sense your sincere curiosity here...

[TripletDaddy]

Yet the blame for it passing is directed at Salt Lake City, not the Californians who voted to pass it.

Honestly, my observation locally indicates that such is not the case any more, although i get what you are saying.

Perhaps in the weeks right after the election, but since then, the heat has died down considerably. There are no more protests and boycotts and I haven't heard of anyone getting hassled outside of chapels.

The ones here that are still blaming the LDS Church for the world's woes are the ones that have an anti-Church agenda, independent of the gay marriage issue. They will pop up again in a year or so once Mitt announces and gets back on the trail.

[TripletDaddy]

I can totally sense your sincere curiosity here...

I was being TIC, but truthfully, those are basically the two main reasons everyone has.

My wife voted Yes. She thinks our kids might catch the gay at school. That is her big concern.

[cowboy]

ok, but I don't quite get that deal. Why would I be an apostate? I believe in the Church, the Gospel, and its ordinances. I am active, hold callings, go to the temple. If I were an apostate, I am doing a sucky job (nothing new there).

I do not use someone's stance on gay marriage as a barrier to fellowship. My wife voted Yes. It would be an unhappy household if I had serious disdain for opponents to gay marriage. I am also vastly outnumbered at Church on this issue, which is ok, too. I would like to think that for the most part, opponents to gay marriage could say the same thing about barriers to fellowship, but your categorizing me as "apostate" for my views makes me wonder. Maybe you were only kidding? Either way, no big deal.

In our home, this issue was not a Gettysburg event. If anything, it brought us closer together because we spent a lot of time talking about it. These days, we barely talk about it, although it did come up again because of the events in Iowa.

I didn't say you were an apostate. I said you weren't. And I'm not a bigot. The debate seems to have degenerated to the point that one side is calling that other apostate, and the other is saying that Prop 8 supporters are bigots. My point was that both characterizations are wrong, and that both sides have valid reasons for their position.

[byu71]

I assume that you are aware that prop 8 was a California initiative?

Of course I am. I am also aware and I assume you are, the media suggests that support both financial and with time came from members outside of the state as well as the California members. Now that I think of it, I was solicited more than once by a member to give time and or money. My statement earlier in retrospect that I knew no one personally who gave time or money was wrong. There were 3 people out of all the people I know personally.

So when someone says "members fell into line", they could very well be talking about "members", not just very active, very conservative, very I will do what I am told no matter what I think, "members".

Do you want to deny that many journalists try to write their articles in such a way as to portray "members" of the church" as non thinking robots.

[TripletDaddy]

I didn't say you were an apostate. I said you weren't. And I'm not a bigot. The debate seems to have degenerated to the point that one side is calling that other apostate, and the other is saying that Prop 8 supporters are bigots. My point was that both characterizations are wrong, and that both sides have valid reasons for their position.

oh! ok. My bad. I misread.

I was about to give up meat for a few weeks just to get back at you. Thank goodness you clarified!