Religion is Personal

[SoonerCoug]

I think this interview of Ted Haggard by Richard Dawkins is quite telling when it comes to religious deception and also of how fact and fantasy are confused. This was prior to Ted Haggard being outed as a homosexual, etc.

Note the discussions of the age of the earth and so on. I also think it's a lot easier for us Mormons to think about hypocrisy in the context of another religion (especially Evangelism) rather than in the context of our own.

[YOUTUBE]mmMv0ceWTVQ[/YOUTUBE]

[marsupial]

Regarding 1: What about lambasting secularism and liberalism? Do you think we Mormons ever do that to people? On a separate note, I think Mormons open themselves up to vocal criticism by knocking on random people's doors on Saturday mornings at 9 AM. By the same token, I'm willing to bet that a lot of ex-Mormons are under tremendous pressure and condemnation from their families. They probably bite back when cornered in those situations, even though they shouldn't.

Regarding 2: No dispute there. You never were one for missionary work.

Regarding 3: There is a huge problem with religious tradition when it confuses fact with fantasy. This confusion sometimes spills over into regular life and interferes with a person's ability to think critically. If a person is able to think critically and independently without fanaticism, then I agree--religion can be a very good thing.

I would be happy to never discuss religion again with my family. I NEVER bring it up with them. Unfortunately, they always want to bring it up with me. They email and mail me talks, links, quotes, stories, testimonies, all the time, but if I respond with my true feelings, I am the one responsible for the argument. They would be horribly offended if I started sending them articles and quotes and videos that represent my feelings. I respect their beliefs and would never do that to them. So yeah, Mormons can dish it out, but they can't take it.

[smokymountainrain]

I would be happy to never discuss religion again with my family. I NEVER bring it up with them. Unfortunately, they always want to bring it up with me. They email and mail me talks, links, quotes, stories, testimonies, all the time, but if I respond with my true feelings, I am the one responsible for the argument. They would be horribly offended if I started sending them articles and quotes and videos that represent my feelings. I respect their beliefs and would never do that to them. So yeah, Mormons can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Sooner made a ridiculous generalization based on his experience with one person, but coming from him, it's expected. Are you really going there too? I've never seen you as a troll, and I can't imagine you actually believe that because your family is that way all Mormons are that way.

[SoonerCoug]

Sooner made a ridiculous generalization based on his experience with one person, but coming from him, it's expected.

I'm pretty sure I asked a question. What generalization did I make? I want a quote. Thanks.

[smokymountainrain]

I'm pretty sure I asked a question. What generalization did I make? I want a quote. Thanks.

I think there is a huge double standard within Mormonism. If religion is so personal that I should not talk about it, then why was I sent on a mission? I think this is primarily a reflection of the fact that many Mormons fear discussion, and also that they refuse to accept a diversity of viewpoints.

There is one question there but if you're looking for the generalizations, see the bold. You're welcome.

[SoonerCoug]

I think there is a huge double standard within Mormonism. If religion is so personal that I should not talk about it, then why was I sent on a mission? I think this is primarily a reflection of the fact that many Mormons fear discussion, and also that they refuse to accept a diversity of viewpoints.

There is one question there but if you're looking for the generalizations, see the bold. You're welcome.

I said many Mormons--not all Mormons. How is that a generalization?

I also think there is a huge double standard. I don't think that's a generalization about all Mormons. I was talking about a double standard within the culture, but not something that necessarily applies to all people.

I wouldn't think that most Mormons like Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on their doors, and I also wouldn't think that most Mormons would let them in. (I remember hiding and being scared of the Jehovah's Witnesses when they'd knock on our doors when I was a kid.) But Mormons knock on doors and scare people.

I'll never forget how many Russians thought we were from a government agency coming to notify them of a death or accident of a family member. The initial reaction was almost always: "WHAT HAPPENED?" when they saw two men with suits at their door. They frequently thought a son had died in Chechnya. Invading personal space is usually not appreciated by people. I know I don't appreciate it, but I don't look down on my fellow Mormons the way I do at others because I'm familiar with Mormonism. That's my own double standard.

You could call it a generalization if I said that all Mormons were a certain way. I don't think I said that.

[smokymountainrain]

I said many Mormons--not all Mormons. How is that a generalization?

You're right. I stand corrected. It was the first statement I bolded that caught my eye as a generalization about Mormons, but your explanation is fair.

[Indy Coug]

I said many Mormons--not all Mormons. How is that a generalization?

I also think there is a huge double standard. I don't think that's a generalization about all Mormons. I was talking about a double standard within the culture, but not something that necessarily applies to all people.

I wouldn't think that most Mormons like Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on their doors, and I also wouldn't think that most Mormons would let them in. (I remember hiding and being scared of the Jehovah's Witnesses when they'd knock on our doors when I was a kid.) But Mormons knock on doors and scare people.

You could call it a generalization if I said that all Mormons were a certain way. I don't think I said that.

Define "many". There are 14.5 million members of the church and even if only 0.1% of them were that way, that would add up to 14,500, which is enough to fill up most of the conference center in SLC.

[SoonerCoug]

Define "many". There are 14.5 million members of the church and even if only 0.1% of them were that way, that would add up to 14,500, which is enough to fill up most of the conference center in SLC.

Like a whole bunch. Maybe 20% of the active ones. I'm talking about Orthodox and Nazi Mormons.

[marsupial]

Sooner made a ridiculous generalization based on his experience with one person, but coming from him, it's expected. Are you really going there too? I've never seen you as a troll, and I can't imagine you actually believe that because your family is that way all Mormons are that way.

No, I don't really believe that ALL Mormons are any one way, but I don't think my family is particuarly unique, either. Because Mormons claim exclusive rights to truth and feel a heavy burden to share their knowledge with others, many Mormons have a hard time recognizing how offensive, intrusive or just plain annoying their attempts to save others really is.

[Indy Coug]

Maybe 20% of the active ones.

Then again, maybe not. Ex-mos and borderlanders exaggerate about how many Mormons are oppressive, close-minded people who can't take any of their own medicine. Especially the newer ones. Probably at least 60% of them.

[creekster]

I would be happy to never discuss religion again with my family. I NEVER bring it up with them. Unfortunately, they always want to bring it up with me. They email and mail me talks, links, quotes, stories, testimonies, all the time, but if I respond with my true feelings, I am the one responsible for the argument. They would be horribly offended if I started sending them articles and quotes and videos that represent my feelings. I respect their beliefs and would never do that to them. So yeah, Mormons can dish it out, but they can't take it.

With respect, I think the dynamic is a little different if you are talking abotu a child, sibling, or close relative. You are then adding family dynamics to mormonsim. That allows for all sorts of weirdness.

[marsupial]

With respect, I think the dynamic is a little different if you are talking abotu a child, sibling, or close relative. You are then adding family dynamics to mormonsim. That allows for all sorts of weirdness.

True, but I was responding to this statement SoonerCoug made, which is why I felt my family experience was relevant:

By the same token, I'm willing to bet that a lot of ex-Mormons are under tremendous pressure and condemnation from their families. They probably bite back when cornered in those situations, even though they shouldn't.

[smokymountainrain]

No, I don't really believe that ALL Mormons are any one way, but I don't think my family is particuarly unique, either. Because Mormons claim exclusive rights to truth and feel a heavy burden to share their knowledge with others, many Mormons have a hard time recognizing how offensive, intrusive or just plain annoying their attempts to save others really is.

I appreciate the clarification. At the same time, when you and Sooner use the term "many Mormons", you could be saying anything. So when you say many Mormons have a hard time recognizing how offensive and annoying they can be, in reality you may not be saying anything of significance depending on the numbers. I will say that at least 99% (99% being a low estimate) of the Mormons I've ever known in the church very rarely or never share the message with people because they are, in fact, concerned with how offensive, intrusive and annoying their attempts to save others might be.

All that said, I'm sorry your family has chosen to approach their relationship with you that way. It must be very difficult to handle without hurting feelings and inviting tension.

[myboynoah]

marsupial, perhaps you might try putting your shoes back on. It's worth a try.