BKP on the Priesthood Ban

[Topper]

So after settling into the explanation that God never wanted the ban, but his prophets went a little askew for a while until he finally brought them back in line...

How do we resolve the fact that God sent an angel with flaming sword to force Joseph Smith into polygamy?

the Church is so shaken right now, its website is currently down.

[jay santos]

So after settling into the explanation that God never wanted the ban, but his prophets went a little askew for a while until he finally brought them back in line...

How do we resolve the fact that God sent an angel with flaming sword to force Joseph Smith into polygamy?

[Topper]

I agree. I'm more concerned with the church accepting responsibility for forcing many members to abandon their own sense of morality to accept 19th century crackpot justifications.

Remember the excommunications for members who taught or wrote how this was not counsel? Yes, I know publicly disagreeing with the leadership is grounds for excommunication, but it saddens me to see those who simply disagreed with this false practice.

[jay santos]

[Don't forget the next few verses about that most used for justification for the priesthood ban...]

25 Now the first agovernment of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.


26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the bblessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

Speaking to this. And to Solon's comment about how a prophet is overturned by an anonymous web site publication. It would be a pretty powerful statement if they modified the verses in BoM and PoGP to take out all the racist stuff and then in next general conference, TSM summarized the internet publication and announced the scripture changes. I think that could officially put it to bed.

[Northwestcoug]

There's a decent amount of scholarship on the biblical justifications for slavery, including the Curse of Ham. This notion wasn't invented by Mormons. Rather, it shows how Mormonism was a product of its times. As the Industrial Revolution transformed England & the Northern states in the early 1800s, there was a booming demand for cotton. With the mechanization of the cotton-gin, cotton became much more profitable to produce, and Southern slaveowners transformed their way of considering slavery from a "necessary evil" to a "positive good".

The biblical justification for the enslavement of black Africans goes along with another prevalent 19th century belief about blacks in America - Southern Paternalism (i.e., blacks needed slavery to survive). Throw in Nat Turner's revolt in 1831, and it was quite clear to southern society that African-American slaves could not be trusted with freedom.

This crap was prevalent until the 1940s & 50s, thanks in part to the success of Gone With the Wind and its depiction of benevolent paternalism.

I'm as hard on the LDS church as anyone, but I don't think the church has to accept responsibility for inventing the 19th century crackpot biblical justifications for racism & slavery.

Also, I would bet big money that Uchtdorf had a large say in this document, based on his German heritage and that culture's present (justified) hypersensitivity to insidious and harmful notions of race & superiority. (except for how they treat the Turks, I guess).

Just as Brigham Young's culture shaped him to start teaching this crap, maybe Uchtdorf's culture shaped him to start an effort to retract it.

I agree. I'm more concerned with the church accepting responsibility for forcing many members to abandon their own sense of morality to accept 19th century crackpot justifications.

[Topper]

There's a decent amount of scholarship on the biblical justifications for slavery, including the Curse of Ham. This notion wasn't invented by Mormons. Rather, it shows how Mormonism was a product of its times. As the Industrial Revolution transformed England & the Northern states in the early 1800s, there was a booming demand for cotton. With the mechanization of the cotton-gin, cotton became much more profitable to produce, and Southern slaveowners transformed their way of considering slavery from a "necessary evil" to a "positive good".

The biblical justification for the enslavement of black Africans goes along with another prevalent 19th century belief about blacks in America - Southern Paternalism (i.e., blacks needed slavery to survive). Throw in Nat Turner's revolt in 1831, and it was quite clear to southern society that African-American slaves could not be trusted with freedom.

This crap was prevalent until the 1940s & 50s, thanks in part to the success of Gone With the Wind and its depiction of benevolent paternalism.

I'm as hard on the LDS church as anyone, but I don't think the church has to accept responsibility for inventing the 19th century crackpot biblical justifications for racism & slavery.

Also, I would bet big money that Uchtdorf had a large say in this document, based on his German heritage and that culture's present (justified) hypersensitivity to insidious and harmful notions of race & superiority. (except for how they treat the Turks, I guess).

Just as Brigham Young's culture shaped him to start teaching this crap, maybe Uchtdorf's culture shaped him to start an effort to retract it.

Excellent insights. And boy do the Germans loathe Turks. And everybody in Europe dislikes the Gypsies. The vagabond nature of the Gypsies makes them easy to dislike.

[Solon]

[Don't forget the next few verses about that most used for justification for the priesthood ban...]

25 Now the first agovernment of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.


26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the bblessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

There's a decent amount of scholarship on the biblical justifications for slavery, including the Curse of Ham. This notion wasn't invented by Mormons. Rather, it shows how Mormonism was a product of its times. As the Industrial Revolution transformed England & the Northern states in the early 1800s, there was a booming demand for cotton. With the mechanization of the cotton-gin, cotton became much more profitable to produce, and Southern slaveowners transformed their way of considering slavery from a "necessary evil" to a "positive good".

The biblical justification for the enslavement of black Africans goes along with another prevalent 19th century belief about blacks in America - Southern Paternalism (i.e., blacks needed slavery to survive). Throw in Nat Turner's revolt in 1831, and it was quite clear to southern society that African-American slaves could not be trusted with freedom.

This crap was prevalent until the 1940s & 50s, thanks in part to the success of Gone With the Wind and its depiction of benevolent paternalism.

I'm as hard on the LDS church as anyone, but I don't think the church has to accept responsibility for inventing the 19th century crackpot biblical justifications for racism & slavery.

Also, I would bet big money that Uchtdorf had a large say in this document, based on his German heritage and that culture's present (justified) hypersensitivity to insidious and harmful notions of race & superiority. (except for how they treat the Turks, I guess).

Just as Brigham Young's culture shaped him to start teaching this crap, maybe Uchtdorf's culture shaped him to start an effort to retract it.

[Uncle Ted]

I like the article a lot. It seems we're going with 1) Brigham Young made some non-doctrinal policy changes which were wrong and made some blunders in his teachings, but it's OK since it's all non-canonical 2) Because of this, it all evolved weird and wrong theories were perpetuated until it was fixed in 1978, and we're all good going forward. I like this explanation. What's tough to explain though is what's in the canon. I wonder if the church would modify any of this. It's already started to a little bit with the BOM.

Abraham 1
23 The land of aEgypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

[Don't forget the next few verses about that most used for justification for the priesthood ban...]

25 Now the first agovernment of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.


26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the bblessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

[clackamascoug]

Dear President Packer,

It's been a tough few days here on the internet. It seems that you are embroiled in the middle of a controversy about how you took the hard line with the older brethren in regards to the Church's stance on Black people and their full participation in the ordinances of The Gospel. Your name is being bandied about as if it was your fault, and as if you were and are still against it. I know that's not true, but I think you ought to enlist our good friend here Piediippie and start a PR firm for your specific needs. With proper management you can out flank that Elder Holland, and make him the bad guy, and come out smelling like a rose. Of course, if the Lord brings you home before President Monson, we'll all know your true stance on the issue. Till then, I'm holding to the Rod!

-Elder Clack.

[MarkGrace]

I would give anything to hear the inside scoop on how this race article was drafted and approved. As I have mentioned before, I know a GA who related a story about BKP from 3-4 years ago and at that time, BKP clearly saw the ban as divine in origin. Oh, to be a fly on the wall...

I have no inside scoop on what you're after, but a woman in my ward works for the history department and said she was surprised by the brevity of what went up on lds.org. She said the draft she saw before it posted was considerably longer.

[FMCoug]

I believe this is called The Jacy Trap.

This is going to become a CS meme. Whenever one of our wives does something like that we can say "I got Jacied"

[wuapinmon]

That is a play on one of my favorite questions, that mothers, wives, and girlfriends seem fond of asking boys and men, "Are you lying to me? Now look me in the eye and tell me ARE YOU LYING TO ME!". Somehow No is always the wrong answer to this quandry.

I believe this is called The Jacy Trap.

[Solon]

Huh? How does a teaching become doctrine, if it isn't promulgated by prophets? And this wasn't 'opinion' or 'theories'. In this instance, it was done in an official capacity of the leadership of the whole church.

Espoused by prophets over the pulpit.
Retracted by anonymously authored web-page articles.
That's the model, I guess.

The sooner people can feel comfortable rejecting bits and pieces of scripture, teachings, conference-talks, etc. the sooner they'll be able to look at religion like pretty much every other non-cultist out there.

Remember, rejection of bullcrap was the go-to move of Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, and Jesus H.

EDIT: Lest I misrepresent myself, I'm quite impressed with the statement. I would like to see it gain a lot of traction in local congregations and in General Conference settings.

The bibliography in the notes is pretty solid. The writers did their homework.

[Uncle Ted]

I like the article a lot. It seems we're going with 1) Brigham Young made some non-doctrinal policy changes which were wrong and made some blunders in his teachings, but it's OK since it's all non-canonical 2) Because of this, it all evolved weird and wrong theories were perpetuated until it was fixed in 1978, and we're all good going forward. I like this explanation. What's tough to explain though is what's in the canon. I wonder if the church would modify any of this. It's already started to a little bit with the BOM.

Moses 7:22
22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were ablack, and had not place among them.

Abraham 1
23 The land of aEgypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.


Joseph Smith Bible Translation
where the curse of Cain is spelled out

Book of Mormon
skin color as curse for Lamanites

1 Nephi 12:23 - And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.


1 Nephi 13:15 - And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.


2 Nephi 5:21 - And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.


2 Nephi 30:6 - And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.*


Jabob 3:8 - O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.


Alma 3:6 - And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.


3 Nephi 2:15 - And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

Mormon 5:15 - And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.


Of course, 2 Nephi 30:6 was changed to read "...a pure and a delightsome people." I wonder why only that verse was changed and not the others.

[FMCoug]

And you claim to be more valiant that me.

It's a continuum. I'm on the convert / bad childhood side of the line but nowhere near the "born in Africa in squalor and joined the church in the 60's" side.