exmo.com comes to WashPo

[NorthwestUteFan]

Another interesting politics and religion article from Ms. Sheffield:

Why the GOP needs non-believers

Why, oh why, does she throw in the word 'bigotry' when discussing Huckabee and Romney? I understand her use of the word is in line with the proper Dictionary definition, but in common usage it carries a far stronger connotation. The word is greatly overused in this discussion.

(i.e. when Mike Huckabee questioned whether Mormons, such as Mitt Romney, believe "Jesus and the devil are brothers")

In fact, that example is the 'truth' in a sense so does it even rise to the level of an incorrect statement?

[RobinFinderson]

Please prove it is the dominant response within the culture. It is a known but far from dominant response within my experience of living in the culture. YMMV of course, but your sweeping conclusion sounds highly speculative to me, based on my experience.

Assuming you are talking about the poor treatment of apostates, I don't think that it is the dominant response of Mormons. But it is an extremely common response, and happens often enough that I think that most apostates experience it in one form or another. A kissing cousin of the anti-apostate attitude is Mormon-neutrality, whereby Mormons who don't actively harass apostates witness bad behavior by fellow Mormons, but choose to say nothing, creating the cultural space for that kind of behavior to set roots. These attitudes exist with enough prevalence in the Mormon church that most apostates are going to experience this kind of poor treatment by a friend or family member (the people who matter most). Most bees won't sting you, but some will, and it is that one bee that stings you that is most likely to shape your opinion about bees.

[wally]

Why, oh why, does she throw in the word 'bigotry' when discussing Huckabee and Romney? I understand her use of the word is in line with the proper Dictionary definition, but in common usage it carries a far stronger connotation. The word is greatly overused in this discussion.



In fact, that example is the 'truth' in a sense so does it even rise to the level of an incorrect statement?

Yeah, I liked the subject material of the article, but it came accross as a little smarmy. I mean, second sentance in she is already dropping her ivy league education as a credential:

On paper, I should be a progressive voter. I am an agnostic. I am a woman in my 20s with an Ivy League graduate degree and liberal arts background.

BTW, is one supposed to capitalize "Ivy League?"

[wuapinmon]

Actually, you get two points because you used those little apostrophe thingies.

Those are not apostrophes, moran.

[Tone Loc]

Assuming you are talking about the poor treatment of apostates, I don't think that it is the dominant response of Mormons. But it is an extremely common response, and happens often enough that I think that most apostates experience it in one form or another. A kissing cousin of the anti-apostate attitude is Mormon-neutrality, whereby Mormons who don't actively harass apostates witness bad behavior by fellow Mormons, but choose to say nothing, creating the cultural space for that kind of behavior to set roots. These attitudes exist with enough prevalence in the Mormon church that most apostates are going to experience this kind of poor treatment by a friend or family member (the people who matter most). Most bees won't sting you, but some will, and it is that one bee that stings you that is most likely to shape your opinion about bees.

I dont know if I can ever recall witnessing apostates being treated poorly. Instead, I have sat in a lot of meetings designed on how to bring them back into the fold (through genuine love). We have a few apostates in my current ward and they are so bitter towards anything church related, they cant even muster the ability to be kind. We invite them to associate with us, even if the end game is only friendship. And yes, this includes family members that have left the straight and narrow path.

The only time I ever see apostates picked on, is when they throw the first jab. Then, even though we shouldn't, mormons get defensive at times. Its weird to see apostates leave, continue to take jabs at the church, then whine about people picking on them when they dont get kind responses.

[RobinFinderson]

Those are not apostrophes, moran.

Moran? I recently misspelled this word, which made me look like a moron. I blame people like you.

[Viking]

I am surprised I have not heard of her before:



Carrie Sheffield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For someone so seemingly talented, her work here was a piece of shit.

She sounds like someone who failed a bishop's interview for heavy petting and barely got out of BYU, not a bona fide ex as many of us are. Yes, I'm being snobbish, but I have values to uphold

[Jeff Lebowski]

Those are not apostrophes, moran.

Fish on!

That was too éasy.

[jay santos]

I dont know if I can ever recall witnessing apostates being treated poorly. Instead, I have sat in a lot of meetings designed on how to bring them back into the fold (through genuine love). We have a few apostates in my current ward and they are so bitter towards anything church related, they cant even muster the ability to be kind. We invite them to associate with us, even if the end game is only friendship. And yes, this includes family members that have left the straight and narrow path.

The only time I ever see apostates picked on, is when they throw the first jab. Then, even though we shouldn't, mormons get defensive at times. Its weird to see apostates leave, continue to take jabs at the church, then whine about people picking on them when they dont get kind responses.

A lot of what is hurtful to the apostate is more of a natural consequence than someone being overtly "mean".

They can't hold a temple recommend and attend their kids' wedding.

They get released from a calling they enjoyed doing.

They want to have influence with the church and they don't get it.

They want the church or church members tell them they're not doing something wrong by leaving the church, but instead they get told they lack faith or have too much pride or they're justifying sins/behavior.

I agree, those are sad things. But I don't know what to do about it.

[RobinFinderson]

I dont know if I can ever recall witnessing apostates being treated poorly. Instead, I have sat in a lot of meetings designed on how to bring them back into the fold (through genuine love). We have a few apostates in my current ward and they are so bitter towards anything church related, they cant even muster the ability to be kind. We invite them to associate with us, even if the end game is only friendship. And yes, this includes family members that have left the straight and narrow path.

The only time I ever see apostates picked on, is when they throw the first jab. Then, even though we shouldn't, mormons get defensive at times. Its weird to see apostates leave, continue to take jabs at the church, then whine about people picking on them.

You make some fair points.

[CardiacCoug]

A lot of what is hurtful to the apostate is more of a natural consequence than someone being overtly "mean".

They can't hold a temple recommend and attend their kids' wedding.

They get released from a calling they enjoyed doing.

They want to have influence with the church and they don't get it.

They want the church or church members tell them they're not doing something wrong by leaving the church, but instead they get told they lack faith or have too much pride or they're justifying sins/behavior.

I agree, those are sad things. But I don't know what to do about it.

Right. And this is why it seems to me like being too concrete and literal-minded about religion can result in people making the wrong decision. Activity in the LDS Church isn't for everyone and I think some people are certainly better off outside the Church.

But to just leave the Church because (as she writes)...

I struggled after realizing that Mormonism’s claims about anthropology, history and other subjects contradict reason and science.

seems like she (and people like Bill Maher) takes a very complicated issue and dismisses it because her approach to religion is too literal and simplistic. I would love to know what other questions she had for the BYU Dean of Religion, but if they were about things like men being sealed to multiple women in the Temple then I think it's very unfortunate for people to stumble over stupid, unknowable, abstract theological minutia if they really would have liked to keep participating in the Church.

Of course ALL religion contradicts reason and science. But is it better to exercise faith (or at least try) and stay in or is it better to get out when you consider all those types of things you listed? That's the real question, not whether or not scientists can prove the Book of Mormon.

[UtahDan]

Of course ALL religion contradicts reason and science. But is it better to exercise faith (or at least try) and stay in or is it better to get out when you consider all those types of things you listed? That's the real question, not whether or not scientists can prove the Book of Mormon.

I'm not sure how many people here it would interest but I have read some interesting discussions about whether religion can be beneficial if belief is not metaphysical. Or said another way what are the minimum truth claims you must believe to get the benefits of religion.

[jay santos]

Right. And this is why it seems to me like being too concrete and literal-minded about religion can result in people making the wrong decision. Activity in the LDS Church isn't for everyone and I think some people are certainly better off outside the Church.

But to just leave the Church because (as she writes)...


seems like she (and people like Bill Maher) takes a very complicated issue and dismisses it because her approach to religion is too literal and simplistic. I would love to know what other questions she had for the BYU Dean of Religion, but if they were about things like men being sealed to multiple women in the Temple then I think it's very unfortunate for people to stumble over stupid, unknowable, abstract theological minutia if they really would have liked to keep participating in the Church.

Of course ALL religion contradicts reason and science. But is it better to exercise faith (or at least try) and stay in or is it better to get out when you consider all those types of things you listed? That's the real question, not whether or not scientists can prove the Book of Mormon.

That was one of the few sentences I didn't have a big problem with. She was somewhat gentle by summarizing the historical issues as "Mormonism’s claims about anthropology, history and other subjects contradict reason and science." She could have said for example "Joseph Smith purchased some mummies from a traveling circus and claimed to find and translate writings of Abraham with them. The papyri have since been rediscovered and found to be common burial texts dated 2,000 years after Abraham."

[CardiacCoug]

I'm not sure how many people here it would interest but I have read some interesting discussions about whether religion can be beneficial if belief is not metaphysical. Or said another way what are the minimum truth claims you must believe to get the benefits of religion.

I think that's an interesting topic, but defining "metaphysical belief" would be pretty tough. How certain or uncertain are you allowed to be and how on earth could that be quantified?

[TripletDaddy]

This girl is apostate, she is mad at the Church and likely wants to get back at her parents for what she perceives to be years of repression. She also lives in NYC.

wtf hasn't oxcoug made a beeline over to her apartment to help her work out some of those issues?