Newordermormon.org

[myboynoah]

This has taken on odd turn. In our community The Church is well-known for offering alternatively safe activities for young people. Indeed, many school parent discussions about keeping kids out of trouble have included spontaneous suggestions from other parents to get involved with "the Mormon kids."

[jay santos]

But with paying tithing to the church you are also getting one of the most expensive malls in the country. Of course, it is a little out of the way for a lot of us.

You also help fund a high quality D1 athletics program that is one of the jewels of the LDS church.

[wuapinmon]

This has taken on odd turn. In our community The Church is well-known for offering alternatively safe activities for young people. Indeed, many school parent discussions about keeping kids out of trouble have included spontaneous suggestions from other parents to get involved with "the Mormon kids."

Is my impression of your community as a cultural enclave incorrect? If not, then I think your experience is decidedly outside of the norm happening right now. My wife is supposed to do an Achievement Days recognition activity--the big yearly moment of rewarding and praising the girls.

Her budget? $50 for the year. She literally has $2 per activity.

[Uncle Ted]

This has taken on odd turn. In our community The Church is well-known for offering alternatively safe activities for young people. Indeed, many school parent discussions about keeping kids out of trouble have included spontaneous suggestions from other parents to get involved with "the Mormon kids."

Yes, that is one of the reasons for the mall. It gives a nice place for these young people to "hang out" that is closed on Sundays to keep them from breaking the sabbath.

[MarkGrace]

PU, you really think our generation is straying because of a lack of fun activities? I think it's because we've grown up in an era of a wider and more accessible dissemination of information. But maybe I just think that because I hate church activities and always have. Three hours around ward members on sunday is plenty enough for me.

[myboynoah]

Is my impression of your community as a cultural enclave incorrect? If not, then I think your experience is decidedly outside of the norm happening right now. My wife is supposed to do an Achievement Days recognition activity--the big yearly moment of rewarding and praising the girls.

Her budget? $50 for the year. She literally has $2 per activity.

Yes, that is one of the reasons for the mall. It gives a nice place for these young people to "hang out" that is closed on Sundays to keep them from breaking the sabbath.

My experience everyplace I have lived is that funding, while a factor, is not the most important factor when it comes to running a successful youth program.

[Moliere]

Her budget? $50 for the year. She literally has $2 per activity.

:igiveup:

[Portland Ute]

PU, you really think our generation is straying because of a lack of fun activities? I think it's because we've grown up in an era of a wider and more accessible dissemination of information. But maybe I just think that because I hate church activities and always have. Three hours around ward members on sunday is plenty enough for me.

I said it was part of the reason.

And, yes, I do believe that.

I know it was much harder to get kids to go to and get excited about actvities when they had seen older brothers and sisters going to Lake Powell or National Parks or as some had mentioned, Mexico only to be offered "super actvities" which were sandwiches and volleyball at the church. The leaders in the years following those times would tell you that.

The continued neglect of the youth programs has led to terrible, uninspiring activities unless leaders are willing to shell out their own money.

Kids won't come to the church to play hang man too many times. Or basketball.

The less exposure a kid has to the church's teachings and positive church role models, the more likely they are to question, become dissatisfied.

This isn't the best way to say this, but I think it's accurate: It's hard to brainwash a person that is not present or is already disgruntled. Someone who is engaged or having a good experience is much more easily indoctrinated.

The Church is competing for the youth with many other things. It just refuses to engage in the fight for their souls. They want to throw pennies at the problem. Pennies. When much more is required to run these programs at a level that will be effective.

[Portland Ute]

My experience everyplace I have lived is that funding, while a factor, is not the most important factor when it comes to running a successful youth program.

While no amount of money will compensate for lazy, disengaged leaders, there is a level of funding which will be debilitating for any leader when their hands are tied and they cannot fundraise.

I think we are below that level in most units.

[wuapinmon]

My experience everyplace I have lived is that funding, while a factor, is not the most important factor when it comes to running a successful youth program.

I agree. Quality leaders are the most important factor. When I joined the church, we had an excellent YM leader. An activity one week was that we all had to get each other over a shed out behind the church without using any tools or ladders. We did it, and to this day it remains one of my favorite things I've ever done at church.

In NOLA, we were a branch (even though I had 8 young men), and I got by with minimal budgets. But, not having even the money to buy a basketball hoop for the parking lot was annoying. If I'd had more funds, I feel like I could've done a lot more and I could've kept some of the boys coming that eventually left.

[Omaha 680]

So anyway...how about that newordermormon.org site?

[Green Monstah]

Hey, they used to do that in the temples. They used to have a cursing roll just like the prayer roll but you would put the names of your enemies and they would pray that God would smite them.

No, I am not making that up.

Wow. I'd never heard that before. When was this done? When did it end? Do you have any sources? (not that I doubt you, I'm just curious).

[wally]

One minor point regarding humanitarian aid and the way the Church does it:

I have familiarity with some non-profit organizations (Water for People, Engineers without Borders, and Peace Corps) that use engineers to provide clean water to people in foreign countries without. In my understanding, these organizations meet significant challenges with the local benefactors in maintaining and perpetuating the water systems that are designed and constructed, for them, sometimes by them. They systems designed and built in the early years of these organizations have nearly always fallen into disrepair and people return to drinking dirty water.

I know some folks who volunteered several years of their lives to the Peace Corps and described that they now force locals to "buy in" and finance themselves a sizable chunk of the project and also provide a sizable chunk of the labor so that they will hopefully take ownership of the system. They wanted the locals to bleed a little to have the system and for those that didn't buy a share of ownership; too bad, no water for you. They also have to pay for the water that they get out of the system so that some people can make a living maintaining it. This is the new model for charity. Time will tell if it works and is a sustainable (in the traditional sense of the word).

The lesson is that it is easy to hand money out, but difficult to actually make a lasting, sustainable difference with it.

What I am getting at is that in my mind there is wisdom in the Church's approach to foreign charity. My understanding is that the Church tries to give where it has a local presence and can have influence on how efforts are implemented. Also, the structure and the culture of the Church help in sustaining these efforts and teaching people personal responsibility and accountability for taking care of each other and their community. Where else will people in remote locations in third world countries learn this?

Just some food for thought in this very interesting discussion. If anybody has a better understanding of this, please make corrections.

[jay santos]

One minor point regarding humanitarian aid and the way the Church does it:

I have familiarity with some non-profit organizations (Water for People, Engineers without Borders, and Peace Corps) that use engineers to provide clean water to people in foreign countries without. In my understanding, these organizations meet significant challenges with the local benefactors in maintaining and perpetuating the water systems that are designed and constructed, for them, sometimes by them. They systems designed and built in the early years of these organizations have nearly always fallen into disrepair and people return to drinking dirty water.

I know some folks who volunteered several years of their lives to the Peace Corps and described that they now force locals to "buy in" and finance themselves a sizable chunk of the project and also provide a sizable chunk of the labor so that they will hopefully take ownership of the system. They wanted the locals to bleed a little to have the system and for those that didn't buy a share of ownership; too bad, no water for you. They also have to pay for the water that they get out of the system so that some people can make a living maintaining it. This is the new model for charity. Time will tell if it works and is a sustainable (in the traditional sense of the word).

The lesson is that it is easy to hand money out, but difficult to actually make a lasting, sustainable difference with it.

What I am getting at is that in my mind there is wisdom in the Church's approach to foreign charity. My understanding is that the Church tries to give where it has a local presence and can have influence on how efforts are implemented. Also, the structure and the culture of the Church help in sustaining these efforts and teaching people personal responsibility and accountability for taking care of each other and their community. Where else will people in remote locations in third world countries learn this?

Just some food for thought in this very interesting discussion. If anybody has a better understanding of this, please make corrections.

I really get sick of that number that the anti's throw out which is a small portion of the total payout the church gives. It's what the church gives in humanitarian aid. It excludes everything the church gives out through welfare and its normal fast offering distribution process (which primarily goes to inactive members who do not pay tithing and secondarily to active members who do pay tithing and non-members). This figure is probably 10 times the humanitarian aid number.

It also ignores the huge labor effort through full time missionaries (50,000 missionaries donating 4 hours a week + full time service missionaries + public service projects being done at stake levels throughout the church) and other methods like you mention here. This figure also probably dwarfs the humanitarian aid number.

It really pisses me off because the people who throw out that other number and beat their chest are intelligent people who understand all this.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wow. I'd never heard that before. When was this done? When did it end? Do you have any sources? (not that I doubt you, I'm just curious).

Documented here:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Godliness-History-Mormon-Worship/dp/1560851767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326301182&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship (9781560851769): David John Buerger: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XK2YBM7TL.@@AMEPARAM@@51XK2YBM7TL[/ame]

I can't remember how long it went on, but they eventually abandoned it. They removed the vow to avenge JS's killers about the time of the Smoot hearings. Perhaps that is when the curse roll ended also.