Newordermormon.org

[Jarid in Cedar]

Have you ever stopped to think that the church was once as personal to me as it is to those that take such offense? That it was once a part of me as much as it is of you or anyone that still believes?

.

This is why you attack.

[cougjunkie]

Welcome to PUSS

Ah yes he does seem to meet the criteria.

[Sullyute]

Everyone that belongs to said church should be telling you to eff off with all the personal attacks you make toward it.

Maybe Tone Loc is on to something here. Since we already have a temple trayer roll, maybe they could start a Temple "eff off" roll. Members could call up and put down the names of their annoying neighbors, in-laws, internet bloggers that they want the church or God to give the proverbial finger. I like it.

[Pheidippides]

Exactly and when you donate to the Crimson Club do you question what they spend your money on? Or do you trust them to spend it appropriately?

This is a deep point. At some level you either trust the people running the show or you don't donate. I think they call that faith.

I don't mean to be chippy (I was accused of that, perhaps fairly, perhaps not) but I am continually confused as to why those who don't contribute have a hard time with this. Every church needs financing. The donations that many give to their churches here in Houston are very large - more than 10% in many instances, I would say, although widow's mite principles may apply.

I am uncomfortable with the pay to play idea of tithing, and I wish for more transparency. But I'm okay with donating. I have many misgivings about the church and that is no secret but I derive great benefits from it as well. If and when I stop participating I'll stop paying.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Maybe Tone Loc is on to something here. Since we already have a temple trayer roll, maybe they could start a Temple "eff off" roll. Members could call up and put down the names of their annoying neighbors, in-laws, internet bloggers that they want the church or God to give the proverbial finger. I like it.

Hey, they used to do that in the temples. They used to have a cursing roll just like the prayer roll but you would put the names of your enemies and they would pray that God would smite them.

No, I am not making that up.

[myboynoah]

This is a deep point. At some level you either trust the people running the show or you don't donate. I think they call that faith.

I don't mean to be chippy (I was accused of that, perhaps fairly, perhaps not) but I am continually confused as to why those who don't contribute have a hard time with this. Every church needs financing. The donations that many give to their churches here in Houston are very large - more than 10% in many instances, I would say, although widow's mite principles may apply.

I am uncomfortable with the pay to play idea of tithing, and I wish for more transparency. But I'm okay with donating. I have many misgivings about the church and that is no secret but I derive great benefits from it as well. If and when I stop participating I'll stop paying.

It's called a hobby.

[UtahDan]

This is a deep point. At some level you either trust the people running the show or you don't donate. I think they call that faith.

I don't mean to be chippy (I was accused of that, perhaps fairly, perhaps not) but I am continually confused as to why those who don't contribute have a hard time with this. Every church needs financing. The donations that many give to their churches here in Houston are very large - more than 10% in many instances, I would say, although widow's mite principles may apply.

I am uncomfortable with the pay to play idea of tithing, and I wish for more transparency. But I'm okay with donating. I have many misgivings about the church and that is no secret but I derive great benefits from it as well. If and when I stop participating I'll stop paying.

Who said otherwise? Some of you are seeing a disagreement in this thread, at least with me, where there is none.

[Jacob]

Now if I were to say, "You are all stupid for believing XYZ", that would be a different matter. I don't do that.

Actually, you kinda do.

[Portland Ute]

In my experience, it is also often contingent on tithing, though certainly not always.

[Omaha 680]

I will give AC the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant in cases where support is needed for an extended period, a commitment to pay tithing is often one of the things a bishop will ask for. This is true. However, it certainly isn't my experience that members are refused assistance if they don't pay tithing, especially if the need is immediate. The leaders I have known almost always err on the side of mercy when distributing fast offering funds.

We also need to ask why a commitment to pay tithing is requested. In cases of prolonged need, there is usually little to no income in the household. So if the motivation for the bishop in requesting this commitment isn't financial, it has to be something else.

[cougjunkie]

I will give AC the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant in cases where support is needed for an extended period, a commitment to pay tithing is often one of the things a bishop will ask for. This is true. However, it certainly isn't my experience that members are refused assistance if they don't pay tithing, especially if the need is immediate. The leaders I have known almost always err on the side of mercy when distributing fast offering funds.

We also need to ask why a commitment to pay tithing is requested. In cases of prolonged need, there is usually little to no income in the household. So if the motivation for the bishop in requesting this commitment isn't financial, it has to be something else.

No reason to give him the benefit of the doubt he meant what he said.

[wuapinmon]

The PTO at my daughter's school is one of the organizations to which I don't mind giving. They provide a detailed accounting of all funds, and if asked, they will answer questions. They could choose not to, but I appreciate it when they take the time to let us know on what projects they choose to spend cash donations.

The Darlington County Habitat for Humanity will, on request, demonstrate how they allocate their receipts. I would still give if they didn't, but I appreciate that they're open about how funds are spent.

I pay a full tithe. I trust the leadership to make righteous decisions about the money over which they have stewardship. I would appreciate knowing the distribution of tithing funds and how they are allocated. I would also enjoy having more funds locally with which to hold activities and events that we can invite the public to like our nativity set showcase (we have about 150 nativities and creches set up). We have a gigantic lot behind the church, big enough for three softball fields. So far my requests to have a pavilion installed with a gas BBQ pit, ceiling fans, and picnic tables has been greeted with buck passing and stifled snickers from the stake president.

If you go to locally successful churches, you will find "teen centers" and full service kitchens. People come to church activities and truly linger longer. The Episcopal Church here has an amazing professional kitchen, and the parties there are top notch. The teen center at Lakeview Baptist has tons of couches, a stage with a drumset, guitar amps, and a piano. It also has a big TV with an xbox, a dance floor with a disco ball, and an indoor basketball/volleyball gym. Teenagers love to hang out there, and activity night on Wednesday is packed (granted, they also have a full-time paid youth minister to oversee programs).

In these parts, the Methodists have excellent BSA troops with Centennial Quality awards that aren't ephemeral. They have equipment, troop trailers, and out buildings specifically for storage of scouting equipment. Non-Methodists send their kids to the Methodist scout troop because of how well-run and awesome it is.

The Catholic Church here has fish fries all the time. They do rummage sales, chicken bogs, Low Country boils, and live nativities. They also maintain a food bank and will get infants a no-frills car seat on the recommendation of a physician or ecclesiastical leader.

Every denomination in town has a pre-k and kindergarten (at one of their locations) except for the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Methodists and the Episcopalians founded an honest-to-goodness no-questions-asked soup kitchen M-F that feeds between 60-110 people a day. My ward helps cook twice a month.

Almost all of the Baptist churches contribute to the funding of Upward soccer, basketball, cheerleading, and flag football.

The Salvation Army employs mentally retarded and emotionally disturbed people, maintains a food bank, works with addicted people to get them clean, and they wanted to build a rehab center but NIMBY prevailed.

I feel like the Church is missing the point outside of Utah. We don't need more proselyting missionaries here; we need service missionaries and members too to have resources sufficient to make a difference in our communities. We've gone from a finding truth place led by Joseph Smith to the Corporation of the President with the sure signs following of bureaucracy and an epistemological elite.

The routinization of charisma in our church is essentially complete.

[New Mexican Disaster]

Wuap you are right on the money with this one.

[Portland Ute]

Wuap you are right on the money with this one.

As an aside, I think the Church's activity/fund slashing of the late 80's is, in part, responsible for the decreased activity and increased dissonance among members that are in their 30's and now 20's.

When the cuts came and the mandates went out that large, fun activities were no longer acceptable, the decision was made that the youth would be an experiment.

I think it's unsuprising that my generation (those in the mid to late 30's) and younger are the ones that are "straying."

Prior to "us", a lot of time and MONEY were spent on youth activities. Super activities, great activities on week nights, etc.

Kids looked forward to activities and ATTENDED them. This gave them increased exposure to LDS docrtines, policies and adults that would advise them and be examples in the Church.

That all went away. Superactivities and super high adventure trips gave way to 'superactivities' that consisted of hot dogs and water balloon volleyball at the local stake center.

What wuap sees at local churches is an investment in their youth.

What you hear from LDS leaders, local and general, is that "we aren't in the business of competing for entertainment of the kids." Well, you are. And you are losing by default. Whether or not the LDS church WANTS to be in competition with sports, movies, amusement parks, video games, community centers, swimming pools, etc., is meaningless. The LDS church DOES compete for kids time with all these things.

100 dollars for a blue and gold banquet. Think about that. It's a complete joke.

I was released from being an advisor for the Priest Quorum a few months ago. The youth groups are an underfunded joke. And, believe me, we (the LDS church) ARE in competition with NUMEROUS entities for the attention of the youth. Including, as wuap points out, other churches.

Ideally, every week each youth group ought to have $100 to carry out an activity. If not that at least a couple of well funded actvities per month.

On top of that, there would be a WELL funded super activity every summer. Well funded activities on a quarterly basis for the youth of the ward.

No more bare bones bullshit.

Blow the muther f*(%er OUT! Impress the kids. Show them that you are serious when you say you want them at the activities.

The reason kids don't come to activities is because it's generally just another chance to sit at the church and pretend you are doing something that would interest kids when 99.9999% of the youth outside of the church would say, "F this....we aren't doing anything. I'm out."

Now, I'm not saying that only tithing funds should fund all this. However, I think MOST of this should be funded with tithing. The kids need chances to do fundraisers. Other churches do them. It gives kids a chance to see the law of the harvest at work. You work hard and you reap rewards.

My opinion is that the LDS church buries it's head in the sand when it says, "It's not our purpose to compete with outside entities to entertain our kids."

[Uncle Ted]

So over 20 years the building generates 24M which even including cost of building, maintenance, etc you would never approach a third of. And buildings last a lot longer than 20 years. I'm not disagreeing that people can view it as money well spent (that is, that the value to you may well be 10%), I'm just saying that if you wanted monetize the cost of your use of the building it may be less than 10%.

You wouldn't pay $4000 a year for a family gym membership for example (where you are getting use of a building and equipment for a couple hours a week).

But with paying tithing to the church you are also getting one of the most expensive malls in the country. Of course, it is a little out of the way for a lot of us.