Mormonism as a stalled progressivism

[woot]

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. There was no mention of stake presidents.

Ah, true enough. You've become such a broken record of defensiveness I've taken to brief skimming. Forgive the oversight.

[SloanHater]

Ah, true enough. You've become such a broken record of defensiveness I've taken to brief skimming. Forgive the oversight.

Thanks pot and I accept your apology.

[The Rambam]

It is not a fact. One day we should sit down over lunch and discuss this issue in greater detail. I am dismayed at your cynicism. Maybe it's not cynicism but you leave me feeling profoundly sad.

Happy to have lunch. Are you in Utah?

[tooblue]

Happy to have lunch. Are you in Utah?

No. Not likely to be in Utah until next summer.

[All-American]

Happy to have lunch. Are you in Utah?

Shouldn't you be giving the money you would've spent on the lunch to the homeless, instead?

[taekwondave]

I As for this thread, I thought TKDave was sincere, judging by his responses and lack there of, I was wrong.

Huh?

[creekster]

Elder Oaks paraphrased Joseph Smith in a JRCLS Fireside in DC in 2000 or 2001 when I was at Duke (we drove up for the event).

He was asked by someone in the Q&A after his talk a question something like this: Lots of us are in positions of influence in government or military or industry. We can help the Church in lots of ways such as PR or opening China or greasing the wheels with the US government. What can we do to help you?

Elder Oaks' reply was immediate, clear, and emphatic: The Lord will do his own work. Which of you brought down the iron curtain? Which of you got our missionaries into Russia? The Lord will do his own work. When He wants us in China, he will provide the way without your help. You can't do it and shouldn't try. The Lord will do his own work (he repeated this a number of times).

I later heard a quote from Joseph Smith where he repeated that same phrase a number of times in a speech.

They don't want our help in pushing the work forward. They really don't.

They also don't want us "steadying the ark", trying to improve the way the church operates.

Two examples: The cut-off for girls going to girls camp is age 14. A very semi-active girl in my NYC branch wanted to go to girls camp. The school cutoff in NYC is earlier than it is in Utah so you have younger girls in a grade then is typical in Utah. All her friends were going to girls camp, but she didn't turn 14 for another month. I tried to convince the Branch President that they should let her go with the other girls in her grade. He was sympathetic and talked to the District Pres. DP kicked it to the Stake YW Pres. I called the SYWP and pleaded to no avail. The SYWP said no way, no how. The semi-active girl probably only attended church two or three times after that. She is not a Mormon today. But the rule is intact. My pushing was not appreciated by the District Pres or the SYWP. I was polite and accepted their decision, with tears, knowing the impact the decision would have.

The Mormon Church holds billions of dollars of securities, widely disbursed among many many public companies. Lots of these companies have been sued in securities class actions (where a shareholder claims the company didn't divulge market-moving information in a timely enough fashion). These suits are hated by the top-level executives who are accused of the wrong-doing. They are controversial because the company has to pay money to a subset of shareholders--in effect it is a preferred dividend. Some people think these suits just take money from innocent shareholders and pays it to other innocent shareholders. The point is that, like them or hate them, these suits have generated hundreds of billions of dollars of payouts over the years. But the LDS Church hasn't received a dime of these payouts. Because we haven't opted into the class, putting our hand out for the check. We throw that money down the drain because our leaders identify with the top-level execs (many were top-level execs) and they just don't like securities class actions. I know they understand this problem because I have discussed it with senior members of their legal team and they won't be a part of it. I am certain they have walked away from far more than the 1.3 billion they have given in charitable aid over the last 25 years.

You want me to work within to remodel this stuff? How, do you propose, I get the Church to remodel their policy on the strict age cutoff for girl's camp and their throwing away free money in securities class actions? How pray-tell?

As to your first anecdote, I think I can trade you one for one on those. AN eleven year old allowed to go with the 12 year olds on a campout; a YW allowed to attend a different Sunday school class for similar reasons; handbook rules on attendance at stake athletic events bent to allow non-members to attend; people from outside of our stake allowed to kep records in our ward. And there are more. These occurred because persons willing to adapt to the needs of the few were in positions to make those decisions. SO, yes, you can have an influence on these choices.

As to your second example, I am not in a position to say you are right or wrong, although I will say your explanation seems facile and not entirely likely to me. But just because you cant make a difference on THAT issue (assuming you are correct) certainly isn't a reason to abandon any other efforts. Moreover, anyone who advocates going after the 1 while leaving the 99 should, it seems, always be willing to do what they can to help the one.

Either the Lord is running ALL things, in which case you are right; nothing you can do will change them. Or, much or all of the administration of the church is left to the judgment of men, in which case you are squandering an opportunity by not getting invlovled and pursuing your own well-considered goals. In my view, ti is somewhere in between.

[pellegrino]

Shouldn't you be giving the money you would've spent on the lunch to the homeless, instead?

pretty low class, imo, especially for you.

[SeattleUte]

Of course there is huge irony in the title of this thread. Mormonism's uniqueness has always always been its anti-progressivism. Hell, it went back to the Old Testament to justify polygamy. Similar authority supported the priesthood ban and anti-homosexuality. See also, the sexism.

Its magic-world-view has been in reaction to the Enlightenment and Modernism--Mormonism started announcing the advent of Jesus resurrected from the dead and angels visiting America just when it was becoming okay, even fashionable to deny belief in such stuff, even satirize it, and this was occurring widely. See Mark Twain. Even today it claims to have Jesus' ear.

Mormonism's attraction to many is its ANTI-progressivism. There is no "stalled progressivism". What has happened is a lack of vision and lack of poetry (the entrepreneurs are dead, and now there's just the bureaucrats, as Rambam noted), and assimilation.

[SloanHater]

Of course there is huge irony in the title of this thread. Mormonism's uniqueness has always always been its anti-progressivism. Hell, it went back to the Old Testament to justify polygamy. Similar authority supported the priesthood ban and anti-homosexuality. See also, the sexism.

Its magic-world-view has been in reaction to the Enlightenment and Modernism--Mormonism started announcing the advent of Jesus resurrected from the dead and angels visiting America just when it was becoming okay, even fashionable to deny belief in such stuff, even satirize it, and this was occurring widely. See Mark Twain. Even today it claims to have Jesus' ear.

Mormonism's attraction to many is its ANTI-progressivism. There is no "stalled progressivism". What has happened is a lack of vision and lack of poetry (the entrepreneurs are dead, and now there's just the bureaucrats, as Rambam noted), and assimilation.

Are you saying that the Mormon Church is anti-progressive compared to society, to other religions, or to the organization that existed in 1830?

I believe the thread started based on TKDave's comparison of the Church of today and yesteryear. Not sure where your generalized criticism fits in or how you think it's topical.

No religion is progressive when contrasted with society. Contrast the Mormon Church with any other major Christian Religion and I'd say we're on the cutting edge.

Please try to stay on topic.

[SloanHater]

Huh?

I misread your initial post as an expression of your belief that the Church circa 1830 was a more progressive institution. I thought the following discourse would be a dialogue contrasting the two organizations based on fact and honest discussion.

Rather this is simply another pissing match for the critics to come out and air their grievances.

[UtahDan]

I appreciate your continued venom, though. Between you and tooblue, the church has a great companionship of representatives.

These guys are having a hard time distinguishing friend from enemy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

These guys are having a hard time distinguishing friend from enemy.

Jerks for Jesus.

[SeattleUte]

Are you saying that the Mormon Church is anti-progressive compared to society, to other religions, or to the organization that existed in 1830?

I believe the thread started based on TKDave's comparison of the Church of today and yesteryear. Not sure where your generalized criticism fits in or how you think it's topical.

No religion is progressive when contrasted with society. Contrast the Mormon Church with any other major Christian Religion and I'd say we're on the cutting edge.

Please try to stay on topic.

Mr. Invective,

Of course it's anti-progressive compared to our society, for the reasons I've stated, among others.

It is also demonstrably anti-progressive compared to other religions. Your comment that "No religion is progressive when contrasted with society" oversimplifies and evinces an ignorance of history and the very meaning of progressive. The word connotes social progress, meaning support for and sensitivitivity to need for increased social justice.

There are many products of the Renaissance that probably would not be allowed on the BYU campus. Christianity eradicated polygamy among the "barbarian" tribes. Augustine wrote at length against its barbarism. Some Christian Churches were at the vanguard of the abolitionist movement that led to the civil war. Mainstream religions are beginning to ordain female clergy and gays. Christian churches were among the leaders of the movement that led to abolition of Jim Crow and the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Other religions have, even when not allowing women the priesthood, supported them in their efforts to join men as equal partners in the work force, including in the elite careers. Mormonism, on the other hand, has outright opposed these types of efforts at social justice.

The LDS church is more progressive today than the 1830's church because society has forced it to assimilate. It has at discrete times been confronted with the choice of assimilating or becoming extremely marginalized, if not going extinct.

Regardless of your topic, I will comment on the ironic self-delusion that Mormonism is progressive. It's not, and that has been the source of its goodwill with a large percentage of its faithful.

[CardiacCoug]

Regardless of your topic, I will comment on the ironic self-delusion that Mormonism is progressive. It's not, and that has been the source of its goodwill with a large percentage of its faithful.

Mormonism is progressive compared to certain subgroups within Islam (Wahhabism).