Joseph Smith's children from polygamy

[UtahDan]

I think it would be an important distinction whether or not the non-sexual relationship was referred to as a "marriage."

How would you finish this sentence: If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then......

I genuinely don't know what is at stake over this question.

[Uncle Ted]

I think there was documented evidence of this (polyandry) in 10 of the marriages.

Does this include the attempted marriage of Orson Pratt's wife, Sarah?

The short version: Orson Pratt becomes a member of the QofT12 and is sent on a mission. While gone on his absence JS approached his wife, Sarah, with marriage proposals but she rejects him (apparently more than once). Sarah tells her husband, he gets very depressed and refuses to sustain JS so he gets excommunicated from the church in 1842. Later, the church leaders declared Pratt's excommunication illegal, reinstated to his membership and as an apostle.

In 1852, Pratt was the first to announce publicly that members of the church secretly practiced plural marriage. This and some other disagreements with BY causes some fall out between the two. In 1875, BY demotes Pratt from second in seniority among the apostles to fourth which was rationalized by BY because of Pratt's excommunication back in 1842.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That little ploy didn't work out so well for David, so I wonder why JS felt justified in attempting the same thing?

Stories like this are very depressing to me because they show that I have to dig through an incredible amount of horseshit to find the pony hiding underneath it all. What would most rational-thinking outside observers call this type of behavior? It smacks of Megalomania on a small scale, at the least.

[DapperDan]

That little ploy didn't work out so well for David, so I wonder why JS felt justified in attempting the same thing?

Stories like this are very depressing to me because they show that I have to dig through an incredible amount of horseshit to find the pony hiding underneath it all. What would most rational-thinking outside observers call this type of behavior? It smacks of Megalomania on a small scale, at the least.

What bothers me is that this type of behavior in the Catholic church is frequently used as evidence that the Great Apostasy happened.

[Moliere]

How would you finish this sentence: If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then......

I genuinely don't know what is at stake over this question.

thats what I was thinking. So what if he didn't consummate the marriages, especially since one doesn't have to have sex to commit adultery....as per Jesus.

[wuapinmon]

especially since one doesn't have to have sex to commit adultery....as per Jesus.

Oh shit!

[Jacob]

How would you finish this sentence: If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then......

I genuinely don't know what is at stake over this question.

then...he didn't have sex with his plural wives.
then...the "eternal marriage principal" as practiced by JS lacks an essential element that may have made the relationships immoral.
then...the claims that JS was a pedophile or a philanderer or that the marriages were based on sex lust are false.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Do you really not think there is a substantial difference between a sexual and a non-sexual relationship?

But as has been stated, at least some of the relationships were sexual, I think, so the question is mostly moot with respect to LDS polygamy.

thats what I was thinking. So what if he didn't consummate the marriages, especially since one doesn't have to have sex to commit adultery....as per Jesus.

Pshaw

[jay santos]

How would you finish this sentence: If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then......

I genuinely don't know what is at stake over this question.

I think the end of the sentence goes

If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then "it rules out a sexual motive for implementing the principle of polygamy".

[UtahDan]

then...he didn't have sex with his plural wives.
then...the "eternal marriage principal" as practiced by JS lacks an essential element that may have made the relationships immoral.
then...the claims that JS was a pedophile or a philanderer or that the marriages were based on sex lust are false.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Do you really not think there is a substantial difference between a sexual and a non-sexual relationship?

But as has been stated, at least some of the relationships were sexual, I think, so the question is mostly moot with respect to LDS polygamy.

This is the argument in particular that makes no sense. People are anxious for Joseph not to have committed this dastardly act, that every other polygamist after him including the next at least four presidents of the church and all the apostles did. How can anyone possibly condemn Joseph for this and give all the other prophets a pass unless they think that the church became apostate at Joseph's death? God couldn't possibly leave his authority with a group of people committing the sin next to murder in the most perverse of ways if it was a sin, right?

[UtahDan]

I think the end of the sentence goes

If Joseph Smith didn't actually have sex with his plural wives then "it rules out a sexual motive for implementing the principle of polygamy".

I suppose I can buy this.

[Jeff Lebowski]

By the way, polyandy (at least in the spiritual sense) hung around for quite a while. Long after the saints migrated to Utah it was common for a woman (who was often married to a faithful brother) decide that she wanted to be sealed as a wife to one of the dead prophets (JS being the most popular choice). I suppose it was thought to ensure a greater reward in the hereafter. Sometime in the late 1800's (IIRC) the practice was discontinued.

That had to have been a punch in the gut to have your wife announce that decision. Yikes.

[wuapinmon]

That had to have been a punch in the gut to have your wife announce that decision. Yikes.

It's kind of empowering to a woman though.

[Moliere]

By the way, polyandy (at least in the spiritual sense) hung around for quite a while. Long after the saints migrated to Utah it was common for a woman (who was often married to a faithful brother) decide that she wanted to be sealed as a wife to one of the dead prophets (JS being the most popular choice). I suppose it was thought to ensure a greater reward in the hereafter. Sometime in the late 1800's (IIRC) the practice was discontinued.

That had to have been a punch in the gut to have your wife announce that decision. Yikes.

I seem to remember this practice being used mostly because of the doctrine of sealings and linking the entire human race back to Adam. Basically the saints didn't have the means to link themselves back to Adam, which was how the initial revelation came, and thus they decided to seal themselves to the current prophet or a dead prophet to ensure a link. I can't remember where I read this but I want to say it was in RSR, however knowing me and my memory I'm likely just requoting a CUFfer?

[Donuthole]

Very informative. Thanks, jennyB!

[Green Monstah]

This is the argument in particular that makes no sense. People are anxious for Joseph not to have committed this dastardly act, that every other polygamist after him including the next at least four presidents of the church and all the apostles did. How can anyone possibly condemn Joseph for this and give all the other prophets a pass unless they think that the church became apostate at Joseph's death? God couldn't possibly leave his authority with a group of people committing the sin next to murder in the most perverse of ways if it was a sin, right?

I think the difference, in my mind anyway, is that JS's successors didn't (to my knowledge) make marriage proposals to women who were already married.

If JS proposed marriage to an already married woman, but his motives were not sexual in nature, and it appears that there was no sex involved, those facts infuse at least a little bit of sanity to the entire the twisted, batshit crazy scenario. At the very least it means Brother Joseph wasn't just trying to "tap that", but that he actually believed in purely spiritual marriages.