Joseph Smith's children from polygamy

[Green Monstah]

Polygamy is a marriage which includes more than two partners. Polygamy and bigamy are illegal in the state of Utah, but the family in the television show “Sister Wives” has taken the state to the courtroom to challenge the credibility of those laws. The lawsuit asks for an injunction against any criminal prosecution for polygamy, challenging that it violates their constitutional freedom. Polygamist family from Sister Wives show taking Utah to court. The lawsuit contends that because the relationships are consensual and are only official in the Fundamentalist Mormon church the family is part of, the state thus has no business interfering, according to Courthouse News.

I wonder if their lawyer, Jonathan Turley, has Mormon connections. The last name is a pretty common Mormon name, and there were a few Turleys who were polygamist that lived in the colonies back in the day that eventually emigrated to Arizona.

[Rosebud]

It's kind of empowering to a woman though.

Nah... that's not empowerment. That's just another example of women's dependence on men for status.

[SuperGabers]

Very informative. Thanks, jennyB!

Is there a "snicker" emoticon?

[Sullyute]

I think the difference, in my mind anyway, is that JS's successors didn't (to my knowledge) make marriage proposals to women who were already married.

If JS proposed marriage to an already married woman, but his motives were not sexual in nature, and it appears that there was no sex involved, those facts infuse at least a little bit of sanity to the entire the twisted, batshit crazy scenario. At the very least it means Brother Joseph wasn't just trying to "tap that", but that he actually believed in purely spiritual marriages.

John D. Lee was engaged to a young woman (I believe he was already married to her sister) when Brigham Young asked that John D Lee give her to him. He promised Lee eternal savlation (Lee was already an adopted son of Brigham Young) or a higher glory if he did so. Lee obliged but was not happy about it.

Brigham also taught that a married woman could ask to be married in this life (not just sealed) to a higher priesthood leader in order to gain a higher glory. He also married some of the wives of Joseph Smith who were already married to another man. But I don't know of any instances (outside of marrying JS old wives) were BY specifically requested an already married woman to be an additional wife.

[Paperback Writer]

John D. Lee was engaged to a young woman (I believe he was already married to her sister) when Brigham Young asked that John D Lee give her to him. He promised Lee eternal savlation (Lee was already an adopted son of Brigham Young) or a higher glory if he did so. Lee obliged but was not happy about it.

Brigham also taught that a married woman could ask to be married in this life (not just sealed) to a higher priesthood leader in order to gain a higher glory. He also married some of the wives of Joseph Smith who were already married to another man. But I don't know of any instances (outside of marrying JS old wives) were BY specifically requested an already married woman to be an additional wife.

There is the case of Zina D. Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. She married JS after being already married to Henry B. Jacobs. BY married her after JS was killed (while still being married to Jacobs). A few years later and before the Nauvoo exodus, BY called Jacobs on a mission to England to get him out of the way.

But all that falls under what you stated about BY (marriage to a higher priesthood leader and his marrying wives of JS)

[Jeff Lebowski]

There is the case of Zina D. Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. She married JS after being already married to Henry B. Jacobs. BY married her after JS was killed (while still being married to Jacobs). A few years later and before the Nauvoo exodus, BY called Jacobs on a mission to England to get him out of the way.

But all that falls under what you stated about BY (marriage to a higher priesthood leader and his marrying wives of JS)

From what I recall reading about it is that after a few years in SLC he told Henry that he was "walking in another man's shoes", implying that he (BY) didn't want to share Zina anymore. The most mind-blowing part of the whole story is that Henry never complained and never lost his faith.

[Paperback Writer]

From what I recall reading about it is that after a few years in SLC he told Henry that he was "walking in another man's shoes", implying that he (BY) didn't want to share Zina anymore. The most mind-blowing part of the whole story is that Henry never complained and never lost his faith.

That blows my mind too and that Henry would continue to correspond with Zina long after. He must have married way above him (as BY implied in his "walking in another man's shoes" speech). And Henry apparently lost his children he had with Zina since BY claimed Zina and her children as "his property" as he was acting in the stead of JS. Real crazy that there was never a divorce between Henry and Zina - especially since Utah territory was an easy place to get a divorce at the time.

FYI, Wikipedia states that the BY "walking in another shoes" speech took place on the plains of Iowa after the Nauvoo exodus but one can never be too sure.

[Green Monstah]

From what I recall reading about it is that after a few years in SLC he told Henry that he was "walking in another man's shoes", implying that he (BY) didn't want to share Zina anymore. The most mind-blowing part of the whole story is that Henry never complained and never lost his faith.

That is pretty incredible. Maybe he hoped Brother Brigham would issue a replacement wife.

[Pheidippides]

From what I recall reading about it is that after a few years in SLC he told Henry that he was "walking in another man's shoes", implying that he (BY) didn't want to share Zina anymore. The most mind-blowing part of the whole story is that Henry never complained and never lost his faith.

That always blew my mind too.

I always found it a bit funny that the guys who wrote Paint Your Wagon were far closer to the truth than they imagined.

On a related topic, one thing that has always escaped me is how they thought this was going to work out long term. Population statistics from the 1870s (I will have to find my source on this, so forgive me here) indicate exactly what you would expect in a system of polygamy: a shortage of women. Indeed, some things I've read suggest (although they do not outright say) that missions of the time were partially about the missionary himself finding a wife. Not explicitly, of course, but it does appear there was a practice of the missionaries taking the best convert(s?) for himself.

At any rate, I have to think that even somebody with a rudimentary education would be able to do the math and come up a bunch of women short, even in a situation (as was the case) where it's largely the leadership practicing polygamy. And what are you going to do about that? My natural conclusion is that you're going to see an increase in the use of prostitutes (essentially a reverse polygamy-for-pay situation if you think about this from a sexual standpoint) or a revolt or shunning a la the Lost Boys of Colorado City. I have not found anything to back up these hypotheses yet, although I haven't looked very far to date.

[Solon]

a shortage of women. .

Shortage of women was common in any frontier town.

The "surplus women needed men to care for them" argument for polygamy goes back to BH Roberts. It also belies the independence enjoyed by polygamous wives.

[Pheidippides]

Shortage of women was common in any frontier town.

The "surplus women needed men to care for them" argument for polygamy goes back to BH Roberts. It also belies the independence enjoyed by polygamous wives.

Agreed, but most frontier settlements were of a different nature. This was not the case of a bunch of gold miners in a community or such.

I think the surplus women argument has been pretty thoroughly debunked at this point.

[Uncle Ted]

Shortage of women was common in any frontier town.

The "surplus women needed men to care for them" argument for polygamy goes back to BH Roberts. It also belies the independence enjoyed by polygamous wives.

Yes, BY gave the real reason for polygamy...

Brigham Young, JD 11:269, 19 Aug 1866

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had the blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

Therefore, if you had your hearts dead set on becoming like God then you may need to pick up an extra wife or two at some point.

[Paperback Writer]

That always blew my mind too.

I always found it a bit funny that the guys who wrote Paint Your Wagon were far closer to the truth than they imagined.

On a related topic, one thing that has always escaped me is how they thought this was going to work out long term. Population statistics from the 1870s (I will have to find my source on this, so forgive me here) indicate exactly what you would expect in a system of polygamy: a shortage of women. Indeed, some things I've read suggest (although they do not outright say) that missions of the time were partially about the missionary himself finding a wife. Not explicitly, of course, but it does appear there was a practice of the missionaries taking the best convert(s?) for himself.

At any rate, I have to think that even somebody with a rudimentary education would be able to do the math and come up a bunch of women short, even in a situation (as was the case) where it's largely the leadership practicing polygamy. And what are you going to do about that? My natural conclusion is that you're going to see an increase in the use of prostitutes (essentially a reverse polygamy-for-pay situation if you think about this from a sexual standpoint) or a revolt or shunning a la the Lost Boys of Colorado City. I have not found anything to back up these hypotheses yet, although I haven't looked very far to date.

I know from my personal family history that some (many?) missionaries serving at the time were already married. And they would convert, become engaged, and then marry a second wife once they got back to Utah territory. So missions at the time were partially about finding a wife but sometimes it was a second or third one.

I've also read that there was indeed a healthy prostitution trade in SLC. I think this had a lot to due with a shortage of non-LDS women to pair with non-LDS men in SLC when the Utah population expanded after the railroad opened up Utah territory. Now that may have come from conversations with relatives (rather than research/reading) and it seems about right; blame the prostitution and sin on the non-Mormons.

[RC Vikings]

Therefore, if you had your hearts dead set on becoming like God then you may need to pick up an extra wife or two at some point.

I'd rather golf a little more down here and just be a peon in heaven.

[TripletDaddy]

All of this detail should be in the Missionary Pal thread. Would be nice to have a compendium of polyandry sources.