Something concerning about the church

[Mormon Red Death]

I've been noodling about a trend I am seeing within the church. Let preface what I'm about to say by noting that I am considered active by the church standards, I hold and fulfill a calling and I am a great home teacher. I don't go to the temple often (2 maybe 3 times a year). I also served a mission and was married in the temple. For the most part I like the church and think its a positive influence in my life. I am 35 years old

That being said I am noticing a trend. Guys my age with similar experiences seem to be doing one of the following:

A) leaving the church altogether
B) staying for family or culture reasons but not believing
C) believing but feeling more disconnected IE nothing really speaks to them.
D) believing but are Increasingly bored with what SIEQ explained as Jackshit

I hear about people I went to high school or was on a mission with and seems to all be "yeah he doesnt go anymore". strangely enough the friends of mine who didnt go on missions seem to be the more zealous in their church activities. btw I move between C & D depending upon the week.

Knowing full well the leaders of the church will never read this and would probably never implement any of my ideas I still find it cathartic to propose a plan that speaks to guys like me.

1. change the structure of non church time meeting (PEC, ward council etc..). 95% of the business conducted in those meeting could be resolved by using a message board like this one. a forum for PEC, forum for Bishopric forum for ward council etc etc. Do all the meetings online and have an actual meeting twice a year.

2. Limit all the other firesides, Saturday meetings, training meetings etc...quit bombarding everyone with a two hour stake "training meeting". No one gets anything out of those things and they become a colossal waster of time. Additionally, when you do have training meetings make it clear that people can wear shorts or jeans.

3. Parts of MLS like Home teaching reporting and VT reporting and other non private stuff shoudl be available to people over the internet. Seriously it pisses people off that you have to fight everyone just to use the computer.

4. Make it easy to donate electronically. I beat this drum a ton but EVERY OTHER INSTITUTION IN THE FREE WORLD LETS YOU PAY ONLINE EASILY. WHY CANT THE LDS CHURCH?!?!?!?

5. Word of Wisdom. Go to what it actually says in D&C89. Make it an actual word of wisdom. Imagine you are an investigator and you read the book of mormon so you then decide to read the D&C. You read section 89 and it says "A word of wisdom not by way of commandment" and then the missionaries say its a commandment. Wouldnt you be confused?.

6. eradicate the pharisitical culture that pervades the church. You arent saved if you wear a white shirt. God doesnt care if you take the sacrament with you left hand.

more to come

[Portland Ute]

If this thread has done nothing more than introduce some of us to SIEQ' post, it is a success.
I had never read that before. I had tears running down my face while laughing to myself.

BRA-VO!

[byu71]

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study dealing with "organizational behavior" and how the church operates.

Because it is a lay organization, I would think you have to have a way of defining those who are to lead and those who are to follow. You can't do it based on education or who has the most wealth or who is related to who. Thats not to say those things don't have influence, but the body can't believe that is what the organization is based on.

Those that lead are the better members of the group. The more rules, the easier to define those that can lead. It is those who can be obedient to the all the rules.

I will add, I dont deny the possibility this system could be an inspired system.

[DU Ute]

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study dealing with "organizational behavior" and how the church operates.

Because it is a lay organization, I would think you have to have a way of defining those who are to lead and those who are to follow. You can't do it based on education or who has the most wealth or who is related to who. Thats not to say those things don't have influence, but the body can't believe that is what the organization is based on.

Those that lead are the better members of the group. The more rules, the easier to define those that can lead. It is those who can be obedient to the all the rules.

I will add, I dont deny the possibility this system could be an inspired system.

Every once in a while I'm certain you are the smartest one here.

I think this is why the honor code is so popular with the CB types. A bunch of ways to prove your worth without having to do anything worthwhile.

[byu71]

Every once in a while I'm certain you are the smartest one here.

I think this is why the honor code is so popular with the CB types. A bunch of ways to prove your worth without having to do anything worthwhile.

I am truly humbled by your observation. I have spoken of you to my friends and your keen ability to perceive what others do not.

[tooblue]

In a moment of weakness (waiting for teenagers to come home from a party) I checked the board … stupid is as stupid does but here goes …

I too have been noodling about a trend I’m seeing in the church. I am very frustrated that I am forced to constantly tip toe around the feelings of “good guys” who prefer to stand around and complain about doing jack**, lamenting the fact no one has recognized their “special talents” as if they are a 7 year old, in tears because they didn’t get a participation trophy. Why does a grown man need an invitation to do anything let alone use his talents to edify and help people to change their lives for the better?

Having sat in far too many PEC and Ward council meetings the biggest problem isn’t the abilities of the manager who happens to be in charge at the moment, but rather the individuals who sit there pretending to take notes waiting to be told what to do, while simultaneously praying they don't get an assignment.

Warning: this post may contain metaphorical language—if you can’t handle it, don’t read any further.

Each week I witness the Bishop come to PEC etc. with bunch of balloons in hand. The balloons represent a variety of concerns, tasks and responsibilities—literally the spiritual and even physical well being of hundreds of people. During the course of the meeting he tries to pass out the balloons to Ward leaders, but most of the time the string slips from their grasp and the balloon floats to the ceiling. At the end of the meeting, after all of the leaders have left, the Bishop gathers up the forgotten balloons, reorganizes his bunch—likely as large and awkward as when he entered the room—and takes them back to his office.

Now, certainly, some Bishops are better at passing out balloons than others. But, how many of us even recognize that the Bishop has so many balloons, or that he is trying to give them away? Furthermore, why do we have to wait to be given one—shouldn’t we just take certain balloons from him because intuitively we know we can look after them?

Oh, I know, I know … that’s not the way it works … correlation, simplification, line of authority, the unwritten order of things, tradition blah blah blah … Horse shit. If you find yourself doing jack** it’s because you have chosen to do jack**.

1. Be more effective working within the construct of the existing system and then the current volume of meetings won’t be necessary. Of course online and social media can only get you so far—it’s not a silver bullet. Having used it extensively for years as a teacher it has it’s place but so does face to face contact with people each week.

2. Those Stake meetings have already been limited to twice a year! What's more, with the right attitude, one can always get something out of a meeting or fireside … even if it’s just simply being there supporting the poor soul who is doing his or her very best to be an effective leader or teacher but just isn’t very good at it.

3. It is available over the Internet … what in Hades are you talking about?

4. Pilot electronic donation programs are being tested in some places. Before you get all excited though, demanding why it’s not happening in North America, have you really considered what you are asking … have you asked all pertinent questions on the subject?

5. If you’re so damned curious I’ll buy you a beer when we go the Utah v Pitt game—but I’m not willing to be your nursemaid in the style of fusnik’s uncle. Seriously, though, what’s so wonderful about drinking? Beer breath and wine breath is almost as bad as smoker’s breath … but nothing is worse than coffee drinkers breath. People are boring and often disgusting—especially when they are drunk or high.

6. Wah wah wah … you don’t go to work in your PJ’s; all restaurants require a shirt and shoes; players on your favorite sports teams wear uniforms so what’s the big deal? It’s a human thing and you are human—relax, and roll with it.

[Surfah]

[FN Phat]

Brotherly love.

[UtahDan]

If this thread has done nothing more than introduce some of us to SIEQ' post, it is a success.
I had never read that before. I had tears running down my face while laughing to myself.

BRA-VO!

I had not seen that. One of the funniest things I have ever read here.

[Northwestcoug]

In a moment of weakness (waiting for teenagers to come home from a party) I checked the board … stupid is as stupid does but here goes …

I too have been noodling about a trend I’m seeing in the church. I am very frustrated that I am forced to constantly tip toe around the feelings of “good guys” who prefer to stand around and complain about doing jack**, lamenting the fact no one has recognized their “special talents” as if they are a 7 year old, in tears because they didn’t get a participation trophy. Why does a grown man need an invitation to do anything let alone use his talents to edify and help people to change their lives for the better?

Having sat in far too many PEC and Ward council meetings the biggest problem isn’t the abilities of the manager who happens to be in charge at the moment, but rather the individuals who sit there pretending to take notes waiting to be told what to do, while simultaneously praying they don't get an assignment.

Warning: this post may contain metaphorical language—if you can’t handle it, don’t read any further.

Each week I witness the Bishop come to PEC etc. with bunch of balloons in hand. The balloons represent a variety of concerns, tasks and responsibilities—literally the spiritual and even physical well being of hundreds of people. During the course of the meeting he tries to pass out the balloons to Ward leaders, but most of the time the string slips from their grasp and the balloon floats to the ceiling. At the end of the meeting, after all of the leaders have left, the Bishop gathers up the forgotten balloons, reorganizes his bunch—likely as large and awkward as when he entered the room—and takes them back to his office.

Now, certainly, some Bishops are better at passing out balloons than others. But, how many of us even recognize that the Bishop has so many balloons, or that he is trying to give them away? Furthermore, why do we have to wait to be given one—shouldn’t we just take certain balloons from him because intuitively we know we can look after them?

Oh, I know, I know … that’s not the way it works … correlation, simplification, line of authority, the unwritten order of things, tradition blah blah blah … Horse shit. If you find yourself doing jack** it’s because you have chosen to do jack**.

1. Be more effective working within the construct of the existing system and then the current volume of meetings won’t be necessary. Of course online and social media can only get you so far—it’s not a silver bullet. Having used it extensively for years as a teacher it has it’s place but so does face to face contact with people each week.

2. Those Stake meetings have already been limited to twice a year! What's more, with the right attitude, one can always get something out of a meeting or fireside … even if it’s just simply being there supporting the poor soul who is doing his or her very best to be an effective leader or teacher but just isn’t very good at it.

3. It is available over the Internet … what in Hades are you talking about?

4. Pilot electronic donation programs are being tested in some places. Before you get all excited though, demanding why it’s not happening in North America, have you really considered what you are asking … have you asked all pertinent questions on the subject?

5. If you’re so damned curious I’ll buy you a beer when we go the Utah v Pitt game—but I’m not willing to be your nursemaid in the style of fusnik’s uncle. Seriously, though, what’s so wonderful about drinking? Beer breath and wine breath is almost as bad as smoker’s breath … but nothing is worse than coffee drinkers breath. People are boring and often disgusting—especially when they are drunk or high.

6. Wah wah wah … you don’t go to work in your PJ’s; all restaurants require a shirt and shoes; players on your favorite sports teams wear uniforms so what’s the big deal? It’s a human thing and you are human—relax, and roll with it.

I shouldn't bite, but briefly...

My jack shit in the church involves me (as well as many others) being in the same shoes as MRD, honestly trying to do what's right, pressing on in spite of increasing doubts. Why, just a few months ago my teenage daughter came to me asking all about the Book of Abraham, polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, you name it. She wanted the truth, not the jack shit she was getting from her (well-intentioned) seminary/church teachers. So my jack shit entailed being honest with her, at the same time trying as best as possible to frame the discussion in a positive light.
When my YW daughters complain about hearing nothing about marriage, modesty, and chastity in almost every meeting, I have to supplement that jack shit with discussions about how there are other equally important things they should be exposed to.
When my recent convert friend is thrust into the worst of the church beauracracy (he found out that his biological son is still 'sealed' to his wife's deceased husband, and according to our SP it will take years to 'unseal' him), how do we explain that jack shit to him?
When most active members I know complain about the same jack shit SIEQ talks about, that seems like an increasing problem to me. But apparently our 'jack shit' is jack shit to people like tooblue.

[Moliere]

1. change the structure of non church time meeting (PEC, ward council etc..). 95% of the business conducted in those meeting could be resolved by using a message board like this one. a forum for PEC, forum for Bishopric forum for ward council etc etc. Do all the meetings online and have an actual meeting twice a year.

I've found the new format to be excellent. We only have one 1.5 hour meeting every other week and we get a lot done in that time. The emphasis is on quorums and presidencies just getting stuff done without the bishop telling them what to do. Now our ward council is more of a "bishop, this person needed help so we did x" type thing. It works well for the adult auxiliaries.

2. Limit all the other firesides, Saturday meetings, training meetings etc...quit bombarding everyone with a two hour stake "training meeting". No one gets anything out of those things and they become a colossal waster of time. Additionally, when you do have training meetings make it clear that people can wear shorts or jeans.

Agree very much on this. Either make trainings "trainings" or just don't have them. Another stake conference session is not needed. We need more hands on training, case studies, etc. stuff that works in real training settings.

3. Parts of MLS like Home teaching reporting and VT reporting and other non private stuff shoudl be available to people over the internet. Seriously it pisses people off that you have to fight everyone just to use the computer.

I thought the new version of MLS or the website allows this. Am I wrong? I'm not in a position to know, but our exec. sec. can pull up records and such at home.

4. Make it easy to donate electronically. I beat this drum a ton but EVERY OTHER INSTITUTION IN THE FREE WORLD LETS YOU PAY ONLINE EASILY. WHY CANT THE LDS CHURCH?!?!?!?

This is possible. I donate through bill pay. It's a simple set up. Just send in a completed form and you are good to go. Took 2 minutes to fill out the form and now it takes all of 30 seconds to send in the tithing through bill pay from my banks website.

5. Word of Wisdom. Go to what it actually says in D&C89. Make it an actual word of wisdom. Imagine you are an investigator and you read the book of mormon so you then decide to read the D&C. You read section 89 and it says "A word of wisdom not by way of commandment" and then the missionaries say its a commandment. Wouldnt you be confused?.

I agree, or just change 89 to match what we do today. JS had no issues with changing/tweaking his revelations so we should do the same today to avoid the dissonance that exists between scriptures and practice.

6. eradicate the pharisitical culture that pervades the church. You arent saved if you wear a white shirt. God doesnt care if you take the sacrament with you left hand.

This is slowly dying a slow death...and I mean slow. I only wear a white shirt to church and never to trainings, firesides, stake meetings, ward meetings, etc. My daughter is also left handed and I don't smack her hand when she takes the bread with her left hand. I'm helping this one die and maybe some day it will be gone. I will say that emphasizing white shirts is not all that bad given that most men in the church have little to no fashion sense. I'm a bit afraid to see the shirt/tie combo that would happen without white shirts.

[tooblue]

I shouldn't bite, but briefly...

My jack shit in the church involves me (as well as many others) being in the same shoes as MRD, honestly trying to do what's right, pressing on in spite of increasing doubts. Why, just a few months ago my teenage daughter came to me asking all about the Book of Abraham, polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, you name it. She wanted the truth, not the jack shit she was getting from her (well-intentioned) seminary/church teachers. So my jack shit entailed being honest with her, at the same time trying as best as possible to frame the discussion in a positive light.
When my YW daughters complain about hearing nothing about marriage, modesty, and chastity in almost every meeting, I have to supplement that jack shit with discussions about how there are other equally important things they should be exposed to.
When my recent convert friend is thrust into the worst of the church beauracracy (he found out that his biological son is still 'sealed' to his wife's deceased husband, and according to our SP it will take years to 'unseal' him), how do we explain that jack shit to him?
When most active members I know complain about the same jack shit SIEQ talks about, that seems like an increasing problem to me. But apparently our 'jack shit' is jack shit to people like tooblue.

The increasing problem is the excuse making and rationalization going on. For all the talk about honesty, I've seen very few individuals struggling with doubt be truly honest with themselves or me on why they are giving in to disbelief.

It’s easier—it’s the path well traveled.

Hard work is required to be a member of any community let alone the church. A great deal of patients, long suffering and charity is required. Quite frankly, very few people in this world have or are willing to make time for the needs of others. Egotism is the most detrimental plague of society today. It lies at the heart of all discontent … it constantly petitions for empirically demonstrable justification and rational … and even if there were ample validation to compel someone to act it’s not, nor ever will be enough to satiate the appetites of the inner ego.

Are the doubters really so easily beguiled—are their expectations of historical figures so inflated that it is impossible to exercise faith at all in anything other than one’s own personal experience? Is that by design—a sort of built in mental safety mechanism?

We are all products of our environment. As such we are all bigots by nature, inherently prejudicial and potentially racist. That’s why Christ’s teachings are so uniquely profound. Even his apostles struggled with such issues while ministering with him, yet they get a pass but ol’ Joe Smith or Brother Brigham doesn’t because …

Are we so arrogant as to believe that our literal, as well as cultural ancestry is so superior that we should be that much more enlightened than any and all other cultures that came before us? Such naivety is irrational.

As a father, my primary responsibility is to supplement all of my children’s education be it religious or not. Even though I am a teacher I harbor legitimate concerns about my children’s school teachers, partly because the curriculum they champion is so unwieldy and fraught with inconsistencies. At the end of the day however, I choose to have faith in the school system, primarily because I know I am prepared to face the challenge of building upon and supplementing their learning through the variety of experiences I alone can uniquely offer them.

In regards to a correlated church curriculum I am grateful it exists to provide a good basis for understanding the principle tenants of the Gospel. That leaves me with the hard questions to ask and answer in ways consistent with my own experience, talents and resourcefulness … not to mention the freedom it affords me to truly invite my children to personalize their experience with religion and God. I am not prepared to cede my children’s or my own salvation to someone else. I am prepared, however, to be a part of a body of people striving to be disciples of Christ and good stewards to one another as we all seek peace of mind and happiness in this mortal existence.

"On wild trees the flowers are fragrant, on cultivated trees, the
fruits."—Flavius Philostratus the Elder

I choose faith over fear and hope I will always be willing to see and try to understand the big picture. I’m willing to taste and judge the fruits of the past for what they are and not what my inflated sense of self believes they should’ve, should or might be.

[DU Ute]

The increasing problem is the excuse making and rationalization going on. For all the talk about honesty, I've seen very few individuals struggling with doubt be truly honest with themselves or me on why they are giving in to disbelief.

It’s easier—it’s the path well traveled.

Hard work is required to be a member of any community let alone the church. A great deal of patients, long suffering and charity is required. Quite frankly, very few people in this world have or are willing to make time for the needs of others. Egotism is the most detrimental plague of society today. It lies at the heart of all discontent … it constantly petitions for empirically demonstrable justification and rational … and even if there were ample validation to compel someone to act it’s not, nor ever will be enough to satiate the appetites of the inner ego.

Are the doubters really so easily beguiled—are their expectations of historical figures so inflated that it is impossible to exercise faith at all in anything other than one’s own personal experience? Is that by design—a sort of built in mental safety mechanism?

We are all products of our environment. As such we are all bigots by nature, inherently prejudicial and potentially racist. That’s why Christ’s teachings are so uniquely profound. Even his apostles struggled with such issues while ministering with him, yet they get a pass but ol’ Joe Smith or Brother Brigham doesn’t because …

Are we so arrogant as to believe that our literal, as well as cultural ancestry is so superior that we should be that much more enlightened than any and all other cultures that came before us? Such naivety is irrational.

As a father, my primary responsibility is to supplement all of my children’s education be it religious or not. Even though I am a teacher I harbor legitimate concerns about my children’s school teachers, partly because the curriculum they champion is so unwieldy and fraught with inconsistencies. At the end of the day however, I choose to have faith in the school system, primarily because I know I am prepared to face the challenge of building upon and supplementing their learning through the variety of experiences I alone can uniquely offer them.

In regards to a correlated church curriculum I am grateful it exists to provide a good basis for understanding the principle tenants of the Gospel. That leaves me with the hard questions to ask and answer in ways consistent with my own experience, talents and resourcefulness … not to mention the freedom it affords me to truly invite my children to personalize their experience with religion and God. I am not prepared to cede my children’s or my own salvation to someone else. I am prepared, however, to be a part of a body of people striving to be disciples of Christ and good stewards to one another as we all seek peace of mind and happiness in this mortal existence.

"On wild trees the flowers are fragrant, on cultivated trees, the
fruits."—Flavius Philostratus the Elder

I choose faith over fear and hope I will always be willing to see and try to understand the big picture. I’m willing to taste and judge the fruits of the past for what they are and not what my inflated sense of self believes they should’ve, should or might be.

I just don't get you.

[UtahDan]

Basically, MRD, the problem is you. So get over it!

[Northwestcoug]

The increasing problem is the excuse making and rationalization going on. For all the talk about honesty, I've seen very few individuals struggling with doubt be truly honest with themselves or me on why they are giving in to disbelief.
It’s easier—it’s the path well traveled.

Hard work is required to be a member of any community let alone the church. A great deal of patients, long suffering and charity is required. Quite frankly, very few people in this world have or are willing to make time for the needs of others. Egotism is the most detrimental plague of society today. It lies at the heart of all discontent … it constantly petitions for empirically demonstrable justification and rational … and even if there were ample validation to compel someone to act it’s not, nor ever will be enough to satiate the appetites of the inner ego.

Are the doubters really so easily beguiled—are their expectations of historical figures so inflated that it is impossible to exercise faith at all in anything other than one’s own personal experience? Is that by design—a sort of built in mental safety mechanism?

We are all products of our environment. As such we are all bigots by nature, inherently prejudicial and potentially racist. That’s why Christ’s teachings are so uniquely profound. Even his apostles struggled with such issues while ministering with him, yet they get a pass but ol’ Joe Smith or Brother Brigham doesn’t because …

Are we so arrogant as to believe that our literal, as well as cultural ancestry is so superior that we should be that much more enlightened than any and all other cultures that came before us? Such naivety is irrational.

As a father, my primary responsibility is to supplement all of my children’s education be it religious or not. Even though I am a teacher I harbor legitimate concerns about my children’s school teachers, partly because the curriculum they champion is so unwieldy and fraught with inconsistencies. At the end of the day however, I choose to have faith in the school system, primarily because I know I am prepared to face the challenge of building upon and supplementing their learning through the variety of experiences I alone can uniquely offer them.

In regards to a correlated church curriculum I am grateful it exists to provide a good basis for understanding the principle tenants of the Gospel. That leaves me with the hard questions to ask and answer in ways consistent with my own experience, talents and resourcefulness … not to mention the freedom it affords me to truly invite my children to personalize their experience with religion and God. I am not prepared to cede my children’s or my own salvation to someone else. I am prepared, however, to be a part of a body of people striving to be disciples of Christ and good stewards to one another as we all seek peace of mind and happiness in this mortal existence.

"On wild trees the flowers are fragrant, on cultivated trees, the
fruits."—Flavius Philostratus the Elder

I choose faith over fear and hope I will always be willing to see and try to understand the big picture. I’m willing to taste and judge the fruits of the past for what they are and not what my inflated sense of self believes they should’ve, should or might be.

Okaaay....
Not sure how you can judge how a person is being honest with themselves, but what do I know?