mormonstories.org

[Moliere]

I hope that I don’t come across as judgmental , but here it goes anyway :

I have only peripherally observed mormonstories. I have only listened to half of one podcast. It strikes me as a thing that very helpful for some people, but not me. In general it lacks appeal to me because the whole effort appears (maybe I’m wrong) as a sort of an overly overt intellectual struggle at the tippy-top of Maslow’s pyramid. It is hard for me to take seriously. One of the best things my mission did for me was to open my eyes to how the vast majority of people live, and it is not near the top of Maslow’s pyramid. It is not even at half way up.

This conversation about how Mormonstories can only go on if people get off their wallet, well, I agree with MBN in that it is sort of distasteful. It smells of Ira Glass complaining about needing donations for one of the most widely listened to podcasts around or “friends of scouting.” I would much rather donate my money to a non-profit like “Water for People” than any of the above. But that's just me.

The original feeling I got from Dehlin was that he started this as a grass-roots thing he was passionate about. Maybe he has lost his passion and it needs to go away? Or maybe someone more affluent with more free time needs to step up and carry the torch in his stead.

Just my two cents.

This is a very good post, although TAL should be supported by everyone (IMO )

I just hope MS doesn't transform into Mormon Expressions. That would be seriously sad. I think John sees the difference in the two and is trying to keep (or even elevate) his standard. But at the end of the day how many podcasts can you listen to on polygamy, peep stones, and the MMM before you feel like you've heard it all? MS is by Its nature mostly a transitional program and thus the reason people move on and thus the reason financial support will always be tough to get.

What John should do is grant access to the FB group and promise eternal life to those that do contribute and revoke their access when they cancel (okay, that part was TIC)

[creekster]

I disagree. Creeksters post was silly. If anything dehlins cause is important and great to some, not the world, but some.

Did you miss the part where I allowed it was important to some? No one is denying it.

JL's post is based on a well known description of the cycle and cooption of great causes. It was being applied to MS as I read it to suggest that the MS cause would be coopted By the process that was bringing it to the mainstream. This cycle doesn't really apply to more mundane or quotidian causes which start differently and develop differently. So, in addition to the point that from a societal POv MS is not a great cause I was also making the point that perhaps the great cause cycle analogy JL used was flawed. I guess I could have just said his post was silly, eh?

Look, my child's welfare will forever be a great cause to me but to the world at large it is insignificant and analyzing it as a great cause does not make much sense.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Did you miss the part where I allowed it was important to some? No one is denying it.

JL's post is based on a well known description of the cycle and cooption of great causes. It was being applied to MS as I read it to suggest that the MS cause would be coopted By the process that was bringing it to the mainstream. This cycle doesn't really apply to more mundane or quotidian causes which start differently and develop differently. So, in addition to the point that from a societal POv MS is not a great cause I was also making the point that perhaps the great cause cycle analogy JL used was flawed. I guess I could have just said his post was silly, eh?

Look, my child's welfare will forever be a great cause to me but to the world at large it is insignificant and analyzing it as a great cause does not make much sense.

My statement was a reflection on the transitional nature of causes and how it seemed to apply here. I didn't mean to imply that MS is one of the world's great causes.

[YOhio]

Great points, creekster. I think many here were under the false assumption that Dehlin was setting himself up as the next Ghandi. You did an excellent job putting that myth to bed.

[creekster]

Great points, creekster. I think many here were under the false assumption that Dehlin was setting himself up as the next Ghandi. You did an excellent job putting that myth to bed.

Thank you very much.

[creekster]

My statement was a reflection on the transitional nature of causes and how it seemed to apply here. I didn't mean to imply that MS is one of the world's great causes.

I don't thin those transition al mileposts apply to all causes and organizations. That was one of my points. But i is pretty clear that I succeeding in little more than knicker twisting and that was never the point so I am sorry I brought it up.

But still i will say that while financial transparency might be important I really don't see what is going on with MS as analagous to the transitions of causes.

[UtahDan]

This is a very good post, although TAL should be supported by everyone (IMO )

I just hope MS doesn't transform into Mormon Expressions. That would be seriously sad. I think John sees the difference in the two and is trying to keep (or even elevate) his standard. But at the end of the day how many podcasts can you listen to on polygamy, peep stones, and the MMM before you feel like you've heard it all? MS is by Its nature mostly a transitional program and thus the reason people move on and thus the reason financial support will always be tough to get.

What John should do is grant access to the FB group and promise eternal life to those that do contribute and revoke their access when they cancel (okay, that part was TIC)

Have people listened the podcast I linked where he talks about what the purpose is? It's only about six minutes, right at the beginning. Here it is again for anyone who missed it:

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1583

Anyway, you have made some good comments here. Mormon Stories the podcast has evolved a lot as John has evolved and the communities aspect is fairly recent. Jeff is right that as hard as John has tried to keep the tone pretty neutral, the fact of the matter is he is just asking different questions at this point in his life than he was three or four years or more ago. The fact that Mormon Matters has spun off under the "Open Stories" banner is a recognition of this. It has a much more faithful bent and is run by someone who is much more a defender of the faith than a critic. Still, I can tell you that he wants very much wants Mormon Stories to be a "safe" place for people who are questioning, struggling and feeling alone to go and find out there are others like them. When I say safe, I don't mean safe for their testimony, I mean safe in the sense that you are not going to hear the sorts of really direct criticism you hear on Mormon Expression. You aren't choosing between the TBMs and the Antis.

I think I explained the difference to Drum this way in a recent conversation, Mormon Stories is the conversation a disaffected person would have with a family member or good friend in the room who is traditional in their beliefs. You are going to be conscious that a person like that could easily get offended at the subject matter or the points being made and so you go out of your way to reassure them you aren't trying to offend, you are softer in your negativity and you try to frame it in a way that won't make them put their hands over their ears. Mormon Expression is me and some other apostate having a conversation over dinner. We aren't worried about offending anyone, we just say what we are thinking.

So Mormon Expression (there is no "s" on the end!) is a different animal. It is for the most part people who have left the church talking about church related topics very openly and candidly, no sugar coating.

So back to your point about can you really talk about this stuff ad infinitum, keeping one foot in the church and at the same time focusing on all this other stuff, a point I think creekster and others have made in the past. The answer is no. People do not straddle the fence forever, not even most of the ones who stand to lose their families over it. There are some, but overwhelmingly it doesn't last. I don't mean that to be discouraging to anyone, but having watched this thing for five plus years now there is a lot of experience backing that statement up. So in that sense, to be blunt, the community for a lot of people is a soft place to land on their way out. And that is why there are quite a few former Mormons participating in the community, still just wanting to have some society with others who they are most like. But I think your comment that it is mostly transitional is close to the mark, if not "mostly" there is certainly a good chunk. Will those people hang around to support financially? Who know, it is an open question. Another open question is how much will the movement snowball and perpetuate itself that way or at what point does it reach saturation? I can tell you that John thinks it has not even begun to penetrate at that level it ultimately will. We will see.

So lots of people at the point they are getting off the fence get more interested in ME. It doesn't hurt their ears anymore. But if the question is are there Mormon topics of interest for former Mormons to talk about, think about, laugh about, discuss etc. or do you run out at some point, the answer is no. You never run out. There is so much material there you could never get through it in a lifetime. Think about how much people still talk about their mission experiences. That was just two years. I have a lot more thoughts on this.

[jay santos]

Have people listened the podcast I linked where he talks about what the purpose is? It's only about six minutes, right at the beginning. Here it is again for anyone who missed it:

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1583

Anyway, you have made some good comments here. Mormon Stories the podcast has evolved a lot as John has evolved and the communities aspect is fairly recent. Jeff is right that as hard as John has tried to keep the tone pretty neutral, the fact of the matter is he is just asking different questions at this point in his life than he was three or four years or more ago. The fact that Mormon Matters has spun off under the "Open Stories" banner is a recognition of this. It has a much more faithful bent and is run by someone who is much more a defender of the faith than a critic. Still, I can tell you that he wants very much wants Mormon Stories to be a "safe" place for people who are questioning, struggling and feeling alone to go and find out there are others like them. When I say safe, I don't mean safe for their testimony, I mean safe in the sense that you are not going to hear the sorts of really direct criticism you hear on Mormon Expression. You aren't choosing between the TBMs and the Antis.

I think I explained the difference to Drum this way in a recent conversation, Mormon Stories is the conversation a disaffected person would have with a family member or good friend in the room who is traditional in their beliefs. You are going to be conscious that a person like that could easily get offended at the subject matter or the points being made and so you go out of your way to reassure them you aren't trying to offend, you are softer in your negativity and you try to frame it in a way that won't make them put their hands over their ears. Mormon Expression is me and some other apostate having a conversation over dinner. We aren't worried about offending anyone, we just say what we are thinking.

So Mormon Expression (there is no "s" on the end!) is a different animal. It is for the most part people who have left the church talking about church related topics very openly and candidly, no sugar coating.

So back to your point about can you really talk about this stuff ad infinitum, keeping one foot in the church and at the same time focusing on all this other stuff, a point I think creekster and others have made in the past. The answer is no. People do not straddle the fence forever, not even most of the ones who stand to lose their families over it. There are some, but overwhelmingly it doesn't last. I don't mean that to be discouraging to anyone, but having watched this thing for five plus years now there is a lot of experience backing that statement up. So in that sense, to be blunt, the community for a lot of people is a soft place to land on their way out. And that is why there are quite a few former Mormons participating in the community, still just wanting to have some society with others who they are most like. But I think your comment that it is mostly transitional is close to the mark, if not "mostly" there is certainly a good chunk. Will those people hang around to support financially? Who know, it is an open question. Another open question is how much will the movement snowball and perpetuate itself that way or at what point does it reach saturation? I can tell you that John thinks it has not even begun to penetrate at that level it ultimately will. We will see.

So lots of people at the point they are getting off the fence get more interested in ME. It doesn't hurt their ears anymore. But if the question is are there Mormon topics of interest for former Mormons to talk about, think about, laugh about, discuss etc. or do you run out at some point, the answer is no. You never run out. There is so much material there you could never get through it in a lifetime. Think about how much people still talk about their mission experiences. That was just two years. I have a lot more thoughts on this.

I listened to this podcast. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks.

I'd like to see John accomplish what he wants, but I don't think he's being straightforward about it. Not that he's being devious, I think he hasn't identified yet what role he wants.

I think he has no more interest in helping people stay LDS. He has no more interest in apologetics or the analysis of historical/doctrinal issues. MormonStories has traditionally been about both of those.

He wants to be the leader of an organization that helps people leaving Mormonism to preserve relationships, emotional health, whatever faith is appropriate to retain, etc. He wants to shepherd people struggling emotionally.

I don't think that's a good match with the Mormon Stories podcasts, because the people listening to the podcasts don't want always want that.

Maybe he should start a new church. I mean that seriously. Mormon Unitarian church. I think he would really enjoy that and he could probably generate enough of a following that it could be financially viable.

[UtahDan]

I listened to this podcast. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks.

I'd like to see John accomplish what he wants, but I don't think he's being straightforward about it. Not that he's being devious, I think he hasn't identified yet what role he wants.

I think he has no more interest in helping people stay LDS. He has no more interest in apologetics or the analysis of historical/doctrinal issues. MormonStories has traditionally been about both of those.

He wants to be the leader of an organization that helps people leaving Mormonism to preserve relationships, emotional health, whatever faith is appropriate to retain, etc. He wants to shepherd people struggling emotionally.

I don't think that's a good match with the Mormon Stories podcasts, because the people listening to the podcasts don't want always want that.

Maybe he should start a new church. I mean that seriously. Mormon Unitarian church. I think he would really enjoy that and he could probably generate enough of a following that it could be financially viable.

I agree all except I do think he is being straight forward, I think he is being a honest as he knows how. He knows that the tone of what he is doing has shifted and that is why he stared the Mormon Matters podcast but is not running it himself. He has said very clearly, and often, that he has no objective of helping people stay, leave or do any particular thing anymore. And you are right that was not always true. He started Staylds.org, but has handed it off to others.

But to the extent that you are saying someone might listen to the first 50 episodes and not easily align that with what MS is trying to currently do, I think you have a point. I believe he sees his role at this point as providing emotional support for people who are struggling to stay in or are on their way out, which is not at all the same as encouraging them to do that. Though of course it does make it easier.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't thin those transition al mileposts apply to all causes and organizations. That was one of my points. But i is pretty clear that I succeeding in little more than knicker twisting and that was never the point so I am sorry I brought it up.

But still i will say that while financial transparency might be important I really don't see what is going on with MS as analagous to the transitions of causes.

I think CUF is a great cause. But I vote we skip the business phase and go straight to a racket.

[UtahDan]

I think CUF is a great cause. But I vote we skip the business phase and go straight to a racket.

Remember how we discussed that in order to make money that only a few of us....ahem.....you're letting the cat out of the bag.

[lambdacoug]

I listened to this podcast. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks.

I'd like to see John accomplish what he wants, but I don't think he's being straightforward about it. Not that he's being devious, I think he hasn't identified yet what role he wants.

I think he has no more interest in helping people stay LDS. He has no more interest in apologetics or the analysis of historical/doctrinal issues. MormonStories has traditionally been about both of those.

He wants to be the leader of an organization that helps people leaving Mormonism to preserve relationships, emotional health, whatever faith is appropriate to retain, etc. He wants to shepherd people struggling emotionally.

I don't think that's a good match with the Mormon Stories podcasts, because the people listening to the podcasts don't want always want that.

Maybe he should start a new church. I mean that seriously. Mormon Unitarian church. I think he would really enjoy that and he could probably generate enough of a following that it could be financially viable.

This is exactly what I've gotten from him in several FB conversations. He is very coy because he understands that if he is overt about his desire to help people's transition from the mormon church, it will tank his credibility with the mormon side of the equation which is essential for him to pull this off. He's trying to walk the razor's edge, I hope he does it for his sake and the sake of those he could potential help out of the confines of mormonism.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I think CUF is a great cause. But I vote we skip the business phase and go straight to a racket.

I have several travel and entertainment reimbursement slips I'd like to submit (all incurred in the performance of my many EC duties).

[Pheidippides]

I'm still not convinced UtahDan is right about not being able to straddle the fence. I'm not even sure there is a fence to be straddled. I think there are many more stories of the people who discuss this sort of stuff and yet have found a middle path than we think because they are not the vocal ones. I do know of several. And I admit I could be misunderstanding what UD is saying.

I think the real tragedy is that there are very few voices from within the church that both can and are willing to discuss the issues. The voices are there but they are silent. The reasons why are a discussion for another thread.

[ERCougar]

I listened to this podcast. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks.

I'd like to see John accomplish what he wants, but I don't think he's being straightforward about it. Not that he's being devious, I think he hasn't identified yet what role he wants.

I think he has no more interest in helping people stay LDS. He has no more interest in apologetics or the analysis of historical/doctrinal issues. MormonStories has traditionally been about both of those.

He wants to be the leader of an organization that helps people leaving Mormonism to preserve relationships, emotional health, whatever faith is appropriate to retain, etc. He wants to shepherd people struggling emotionally.

I don't think that's a good match with the Mormon Stories podcasts, because the people listening to the podcasts don't want always want that.

Maybe he should start a new church. I mean that seriously. Mormon Unitarian church. I think he would really enjoy that and he could probably generate enough of a following that it could be financially viable.

6 out of his last 7 guests have been active Mormons. One unapologetic apologist (Dan Peterson), and a couple of others who don't love the term so much (and probably don't fit it quite so well).