My investigator friend

[Sullyute]

So has your friend stop investigating the church or just stopped asking you questions? I haven't see any updates in a while and I really enjoyed seeing how an outsider perceives church history and doctrine for the first time. TIA

[Pheidippides]

So has your friend stop investigating the church or just stopped asking you questions? I haven't see any updates in a while and I really enjoyed seeing how an outsider perceives church history and doctrine for the first time. TIA

Scottie asked me for an update the other day too. I'm afraid there's not much to tell. He decided that he's going to take some of the aspects of Mormon thought - particularly family bits - and incorporate them but he's not going to really meet with the missionaries anymore. Some interesting conclusions he's reached, some of which I've already shared:

- Mormonism doesn't really bring all that much new to the table unless you buy all the Joseph Smith Restorationism stuff.

- He thinks polygamy would be awesome. Not kidding. Mostly I think this is just because he got backstabbed by his ex wife.

- He doesn't know what to think about Joseph Smith sometimes but he is pretty confident that Joseph Smith didn't write the BOM and can't really explain it.

- He thinks we are some pretty nice people generally.

- He was impressed with missionaries who knew their Bible.

- He was not impressed with missionaries who used urban legend or who decided to stop by during football game time (they didn't watch; he wanted to).

- He got tired of the endless parade of differen characters that paraded through his home. From what I gather these were various members of his ward.

- He found it funny when these various members would get defensive over historical stuff, and even moreso when they would deny it. He did understand why that was the case when I had a discussion with him.

Take-home lessons for me:

- We need to be honest and not resort to clever gimmicks when teaching. I confess I used my share on my mission.

- We should pick one or two fellowshippers and be consistent.

- Missionaries still have little understanding about timing and related courtesy. It's all about Now Now Now and be baptized tomorrow and these lessons should be the most important things to you. And that's usually not the case, at least at the start.

- We need to know our history better. Most of the stuff he asked me/them was relatively softball stuff. We never even touched Polyandry, Origins of the Temple Ceremony, Kinderhook Plates, Multiple First Vision Accounts, etc. All of this is available with a quick google search (which I'm still shocked he never did).

- The Southern Baptists (he is one) have said some nutty stuff about us in the past. He asked me if it was true we sexually abused women in the temple. Turns out he got a pretty perverted description of initiatories from a pastor or some such thing years ago.

- The "hey, we screwed up that whole blacks-and-the-priesthood thing and it took a while to change because of institutional slowness and affirmative desire for revelation on the matter, oops, and I'm sorry about that" (which is my personal view) is a pretty dang palatable explanation.

The funniest thing to me about all of this is that I actually am in about the same belief place he is (minus the polygamy bit) if you read his conclusions.

[byu71]

Scottie asked me for an update the other day too. I'm afraid there's not much to tell. He decided that he's going to take some of the aspects of Mormon thought - particularly family bits - and incorporate them but he's not going to really meet with the missionaries anymore. Some interesting conclusions he's reached, some of which I've already shared:

- Mormonism doesn't really bring all that much new to the table unless you buy all the Joseph Smith Restorationism stuff.

- He thinks polygamy would be awesome. Not kidding. Mostly I think this is just because he got backstabbed by his ex wife.

- He doesn't know what to think about Joseph Smith sometimes but he is pretty confident that Joseph Smith didn't write the BOM and can't really explain it.

- He thinks we are some pretty nice people generally.

- He was impressed with missionaries who knew their Bible.

- He was not impressed with missionaries who used urban legend or who decided to stop by during football game time (they didn't watch; he wanted to).

- He got tired of the endless parade of differen characters that paraded through his home. From what I gather these were various members of his ward.

- He found it funny when these various members would get defensive over historical stuff, and even moreso when they would deny it. He did understand why that was the case when I had a discussion with him.

Take-home lessons for me:

- We need to be honest and not resort to clever gimmicks when teaching. I confess I used my share on my mission.

- We should pick one or two fellowshippers and be consistent.

- Missionaries still have little understanding about timing and related courtesy. It's all about Now Now Now and be baptized tomorrow and these lessons should be the most important things to you. And that's usually not the case, at least at the start.

- We need to know our history better. Most of the stuff he asked me/them was relatively softball stuff. We never even touched Polyandry, Origins of the Temple Ceremony, Kinderhook Plates, Multiple First Vision Accounts, etc. All of this is available with a quick google search (which I'm still shocked he never did).

- The Southern Baptists (he is one) have said some nutty stuff about us in the past. He asked me if it was true we sexually abused women in the temple. Turns out he got a pretty perverted description of initiatories from a pastor or some such thing years ago.

- The "hey, we screwed up that whole blacks-and-the-priesthood thing and it took a while to change because of institutional slowness and affirmative desire for revelation on the matter, oops, and I'm sorry about that" (which is my personal view) is a pretty dang palatable explanation.

The funniest thing to me about all of this is that I actually am in about the same belief place he is (minus the polygamy bit) if you read his conclusions.

I assume since he rejected the church, you soon will be cutting him off as a friend.

[Pheidippides]

I assume since he rejected the church, you soon will be cutting him off as a friend.

Of course. Isn't that what we're trained to do?

[Eddie]

...I will be setting up a visit with the Bishop again shortly letting him know that unless I kill someone, I wont be in to chat with him anytime soon....

Did you ever have that conversation with the Bishop? Just curious how it went.

For the record - I have no idea what your Bishop told the EQP. But I have been in the position of helping make HT assignments and had the Bishop say something about situations and not assigning certain families to certain Elders - but without actually giving any details as to why.

I know that can get people curious. And maybe your Bishop isn't as subtle as the one I had. But hopefully he is doing what he thinks needs to happen without actually disclosing personal info to those who don't need it.

Of course. Isn't that what we're trained to do?

Hopefully your kids never actually played with your friends kids. That can be really awkward convincing your kids that they can't associate with other kids they like playing with sometimes.

[Eddie]

Scottie asked me for an update the other day too. I'm afraid there's not much to tell. He decided that he's going to take some of the aspects of Mormon thought - particularly family bits - and incorporate them but he's not going to really meet with the missionaries anymore. Some interesting conclusions he's reached, some of which I've already shared:

- Mormonism doesn't really bring all that much new to the table unless you buy all the Joseph Smith Restorationism stuff.

- He thinks polygamy would be awesome. Not kidding. Mostly I think this is just because he got backstabbed by his ex wife.

- He doesn't know what to think about Joseph Smith sometimes but he is pretty confident that Joseph Smith didn't write the BOM and can't really explain it.

- He thinks we are some pretty nice people generally.

- He was impressed with missionaries who knew their Bible.

- He was not impressed with missionaries who used urban legend or who decided to stop by during football game time (they didn't watch; he wanted to).

- He got tired of the endless parade of differen characters that paraded through his home. From what I gather these were various members of his ward.

- He found it funny when these various members would get defensive over historical stuff, and even moreso when they would deny it. He did understand why that was the case when I had a discussion with him.

Take-home lessons for me:

- We need to be honest and not resort to clever gimmicks when teaching. I confess I used my share on my mission.

- We should pick one or two fellowshippers and be consistent.

- Missionaries still have little understanding about timing and related courtesy. It's all about Now Now Now and be baptized tomorrow and these lessons should be the most important things to you. And that's usually not the case, at least at the start.

- We need to know our history better. Most of the stuff he asked me/them was relatively softball stuff. We never even touched Polyandry, Origins of the Temple Ceremony, Kinderhook Plates, Multiple First Vision Accounts, etc. All of this is available with a quick google search (which I'm still shocked he never did).

- The Southern Baptists (he is one) have said some nutty stuff about us in the past. He asked me if it was true we sexually abused women in the temple. Turns out he got a pretty perverted description of initiatories from a pastor or some such thing years ago.

- The "hey, we screwed up that whole blacks-and-the-priesthood thing and it took a while to change because of institutional slowness and affirmative desire for revelation on the matter, oops, and I'm sorry about that" (which is my personal view) is a pretty dang palatable explanation.

The funniest thing to me about all of this is that I actually am in about the same belief place he is (minus the polygamy bit) if you read his conclusions.

My Mom's neighbors had the missionaries over and investigated for a little while. They wouldn't let the missionaries bring ward members over, didn't talk with most of their neighbors about it, and when they decided to attend church to see what it was like they drove from Davis Co. up to Park City to get far enough away that if they didn't keep going it wouldn't make things awkward with all of the neighbors that didn't know they were meeting with the missionaries or didn't understand their lack of conversion.

I don't think they ever were baptized. They did get a better feel for what their LDS neighbors believe.

[Pheidippides]

My Mom's neighbors had the missionaries over and investigated for a little while. They wouldn't let the missionaries bring ward members over, didn't talk with most of their neighbors about it, and when they decided to attend church to see what it was like they drove from Davis Co. up to Park City to get far enough away that if they didn't keep going it wouldn't make things awkward with all of the neighbors that didn't know they were meeting with the missionaries or didn't understand their lack of conversion.

I don't think they ever were baptized. They did get a better feel for what their LDS neighbors believe.

My friend did this too, almost. He lives next door to a counselor of the SP of my old stake. So he wasn't keen to show up at church. He told the elders he was going to go with me when he was ready, and I'd discussed it with him.

Funny thing I forgot about that, I think. There's this pilot program in the mission they were doing a while back. Maybe they still are. The idea was that they'd tale random people off the street and investigators, take them to church on a weekday, call up a member to come help, give them a tour, show them the font, and commit them to baptism right there where the spirit was strongest. (presumably right next to the heated basketball game?). We were told this as people the elders wanted to commit to come on a moments notice. We politely declined on the grounds that we had jobs and a family to take care of. The other grounds that we didn't give was that we thought it was the dumbest thing we'd ever heard.

Two weeks later my friend told me he'd been invited to the church for a tour. I felt obligated to tell him what was going down. He appreciated that, although he still went. And said no.

[Eddie]

My friend did this too, almost. He lives next door to a counselor of the SP of my old stake. So he wasn't keen to show up at church. He told the elders he was going to go with me when he was ready, and I'd discussed it with him.

Funny thing I forgot about that, I think. There's this pilot program in the mission they were doing a while back. Maybe they still are. The idea was that they'd tale random people off the street and investigators, take them to church on a weekday, call up a member to come help, give them a tour, show them the font, and commit them to baptism right there where the spirit was strongest. (presumably right next to the heated basketball game?). We were told this as people the elders wanted to commit to come on a moments notice. We politely declined on the grounds that we had jobs and a family to take care of. The other grounds that we didn't give was that we thought it was the dumbest thing we'd ever heard.

Two weeks later my friend told me he'd been invited to the church for a tour. I felt obligated to tell him what was going down. He appreciated that, although he still went. And said no.

That's awesome. I wonder how successful the program is. Obviously it is right in line with the concept of teaching folks and baptizing converts who are likely to remain active rather than doing whatever it takes to boost baptism numbers and then let the local leaders worry about whether or not the person keeps attending.

[Pheidippides]

That's awesome. I wonder how successful the program is. Obviously it is right in line with the concept of teaching folks and baptizing converts who are likely to remain active rather than doing whatever it takes to boost baptism numbers and then let the local leaders worry about whether or not the person keeps attending.

We are far, far too shortsighted in missionary work. Conversion is a huge step in anybody's life. There are people who come, convert, and stay. But they are a teeny tiny minority. Most converts who hang around have a conversion period measured in months if not years. Yet our missionaries are trained - intentionally or not - to expect baptisms today, conversions now, and this is exacerbated by the relative shortness of a missionary's time in any one area.

I'm a ward missionary and gospel principles instructor, and I do take the time to get to know investigators and new converts as I can. I usually do it without the elders present. There is a reason for that.

[LA Ute]

My friend did this too, almost. He lives next door to a counselor of the SP of my old stake. So he wasn't keen to show up at church. He told the elders he was going to go with me when he was ready, and I'd discussed it with him.

Funny thing I forgot about that, I think. There's this pilot program in the mission they were doing a while back. Maybe they still are. The idea was that they'd tale random people off the street and investigators, take them to church on a weekday, call up a member to come help, give them a tour, show them the font, and commit them to baptism right there where the spirit was strongest. (presumably right next to the heated basketball game?). We were told this as people the elders wanted to commit to come on a moments notice. We politely declined on the grounds that we had jobs and a family to take care of. The other grounds that we didn't give was that we thought it was the dumbest thing we'd ever heard.

Two weeks later my friend told me he'd been invited to the church for a tour. I felt obligated to tell him what was going down. He appreciated that, although he still went. And said no.

What an...amazing program.

[Jacob]

That's awesome. I wonder how successful the program is. Obviously it is right in line with the concept of teaching folks and baptizing converts who are likely to remain active rather than doing whatever it takes to boost baptism numbers and then let the local leaders worry about whether or not the person keeps attending.

This program, with a mini 1st discussion, would have been very successful in my mission in Mexico. At least successful as in getting people baptized.

[Eddie]

This program, with a mini 1st discussion, would have been very successful in my mission in Mexico. At least successful as in getting people baptized.

Oh, I have no doubt about that. I am sure there are guys who were baptizing 30 kids a month in my mission in Guatemala who are disappointed they didn't think of it years ago.

[byu71]

Funny thing I forgot about that, I think. There's this pilot program in the mission they were doing a while back. Maybe they still are. The idea was that they'd tale random people off the street and investigators, take them to church on a weekday, call up a member to come help, give them a tour, show them the font, and commit them to baptism right there where the spirit was strongest. (presumably right next to the heated basketball game?). We were told this as people the elders wanted to commit to come on a moments notice. We politely declined on the grounds that we had jobs and a family to take care of. The other grounds that we didn't give was that we thought it was the dumbest thing we'd ever heard.

Two weeks later my friend told me he'd been invited to the church for a tour. I felt obligated to tell him what was going down. He appreciated that, although he still went. And said no.

Wow that approach kind of reminds me of after my divorce and one of my friends told me how to get sex.

He said, don't waste your time going through all the dating, all the cost of dating and all the emotional drainage getting to that point where you are rewarded for your diligence and effort.

He said go into a bar. Walk up to ten girls and ask if they would like to go to your place and have sex. 3 will slap you, 6 will laugh at you, but one of them will say sure.

[Jacob]

Oh, I have no doubt about that. I am sure there are guys who were baptizing 30 kids a month in my mission in Guatemala who are disappointed they didn't think of it years ago.

I'm saying it would have been effective for baptizing adults, not kids. I didn't know many people who baptized kids without their parents.

[Eddie]

I'm saying it would have been effective for baptizing adults, not kids. I didn't know many people who baptized kids without their parents.

I'm saying it would've worked for both.

It's been more than 20 years for me. Back then some elders baptized a lot of kids (in the 10-14 age range). The parents didn't seem to mind too much - church is a good thing, right? It's not like they aren't going to jump from one evangelical church to another their whole life anyway, is it? (from the parent's perspective)