My investigator friend

[grapevine]

I heard someone said if the church was not true missionaries would of destroyed it long ago. Wonder if that is urban legend. As for Polygamy in Jacob it says if the Lord wants to raise up seed he will allow it. So does allow for it.


I wonder if wow is more of obedeince. There have been people that called the missionary commercials just to bash missionaries. Those are people with decsisions and want to bash you. I don't know why Blacks did not get priesthood before 1978 and many questions you don't know the answer. People that don't think we have the authority to act in Gods name why do they care what we do? Don't beleive our priesthood is valid anyway. Who that is LDS cares what the Catholic or former rlds church does since they don't beleive they have the priesthood anyway?

[Majo]

He actually already has - it means a lot to him that I'm honest about my feelings.

I am learning a ton in this situation. I have never been a semi-detached third party in a situation with a view like this, and the experience is invaluable. It's rare to get the unfettered and honest opinions (I think) of an investigator with respect to the doctrine, the missionaries, the approach, etc.

As to being heretical...I really do think it's sad that I feel comfortable being open with an investigator where I wouldn't have that conversation in church. And I agree that it's sad that my investigator friend knows more than most of the membership around here.

Privately, I wouldn't be surprised if I get asked to talk to the SP about this at some level. I may have mentioned that said friend lives next door to - and is close friends with - a member of the SP of my former stake. And he's involved in the process closely. Our stake was split off and my current SP and said SP member of the former stake served together and know each other. And I already think my own bishop and SP are worried about me.

Thanks for sharing. This is a great thread. Keep up the updates.

And good for you for being honest. It may be a little tricky to be honest and positive about some of the stickier church history points, but I really think your friend will be better off for it. It seems your honesty has earned his trust. And I can't imagine you getting in any trouble for honestly answering questions...I think you're actions are 100% defensible, even in front of the most orthodox.

[Devildog]

Look, my falling away was first a dynamic of: "wait a minute...what??!!" (as i learned not everything was "oh, how lovely was the morning"), and later, the "this is nonsense".

I might have still arrived at the the "nonsense" conclusion but the feeling that the church was dishonest would have been absent.

I wish it wasnt the case. I have fond memories of growing up mormon

I can completely relate to this.

I have arrived at the "this is nonsense" conclusion so many times I lost count.

I don't have answers to so many questions I have about this church.

The problem for me is... God doesn't appear to want me to give up. He keeps bringing me back in spite of my objections.

I have never been good at Faith. Never.

What I keep finding in my life... is that all of what really matters to me is addressed in the gospel.

I guess God doesn't care if I ever find the answers to what bothers me about this church... He keeps giving me the answers to the things he thinks I should know.

I've never been a good student either... He seems really patient to me. Even though there is often pain involved on my end.

This song might not mean anything to anybody else (it's not LDS) but, I have found much meaning in it.

[YOUTUBE]WTNBWv33-QI[/YOUTUBE]

[Katy Lied]

I can completely relate to this.

I have arrived at the "this is nonsense" conclusion so many times I lost count.

I don't have answers to so many questions I have about this church.

The problem for me is... God doesn't appear to want me to give up. He keeps bringing me back in spite of my objections.

I have never been good at Faith. Never.

What I keep finding in my life... is that all of what really matters to me is addressed in the gospel.

I guess God doesn't care if I ever find the answers to what bothers me about this church... He keeps giving me the answers to the things he thinks I should know.

I've never been a good student either... He seems really patient to me. Even though there is often pain involved on my end.

Pretty powerful testimony, DD.

[LA Ute]

I can completely relate to this.

I have arrived at the "this is nonsense" conclusion so many times I lost count.

I don't have answers to so many questions I have about this church.

The problem for me is... God doesn't appear to want me to give up. He keeps bringing me back in spite of my objections.

I have never been good at Faith. Never.

What I keep finding in my life... is that all of what really matters to me is addressed in the gospel.

I guess God doesn't care if I ever find the answers to what bothers me about this church... He keeps giving me the answers to the things he thinks I should know.

I've never been a good student either... He seems really patient to me. Even though there is often pain involved on my end.

Thanks, DD, your post made my day.

[Viking]

I can completely relate to this.

I have arrived at the "this is nonsense" conclusion so many times I lost count.

I don't have answers to so many questions I have about this church.

The problem for me is... God doesn't appear to want me to give up. He keeps bringing me back in spite of my objections.

I have never been good at Faith. Never.

What I keep finding in my life... is that all of what really matters to me is addressed in the gospel.

I guess God doesn't care if I ever find the answers to what bothers me about this church... He keeps giving me the answers to the things he thinks I should know.

I've never been a good student either... He seems really patient to me. Even though there is often pain involved on my end.

This song might not mean anything to anybody else (it's not LDS) but, I have found much meaning in it.

I appreciate your thoughts.

I don't find the same comfort but I think I'm more "temple worthy" than ever in my life, in the sense that I think I'm a better person than I've ever been.

Of course I would miserably fail all the testimony and WoW stuff, but so what? I care for the poor, I am honest in all dealings and I feel like I'm a highly moral person.

[FMCoug]

In retrospect, it's increasingly odd to me that I'm more than comfortable sharing my innermost thoughts about my religion with a non-member friend than I am with my many member friends. I think that says something about our religious culture, and not a good something either.

Well said. Quite an indictment. And 100% accurate IMO. Exhibit A is the religion forum here and/or the SE posts from various members.

[Pheidippides]

I can completely relate to this.

I have arrived at the "this is nonsense" conclusion so many times I lost count.

I don't have answers to so many questions I have about this church.

The problem for me is... God doesn't appear to want me to give up. He keeps bringing me back in spite of my objections.

I have never been good at Faith. Never.

What I keep finding in my life... is that all of what really matters to me is addressed in the gospel.

I guess God doesn't care if I ever find the answers to what bothers me about this church... He keeps giving me the answers to the things he thinks I should know.

I've never been a good student either... He seems really patient to me. Even though there is often pain involved on my end.

This song might not mean anything to anybody else (it's not LDS) but, I have found much meaning in it.

[YOUTUBE]WTNBWv33-QI[/YOUTUBE]

Thank you for sharing this. I appreciated it very much.

[Devildog]

I appreciate your thoughts.

I don't find the same comfort but I think I'm more "temple worthy" than ever in my life, in the sense that I think I'm a better person than I've ever been.

Of course I would miserably fail all the testimony and WoW stuff, but so what? I care for the poor, I am honest in all dealings and I feel like I'm a highly moral person.

Cool.

I wasn't necessarily trying to convince you, (or anybody else either) I can barely keep myself engaged sometimes.

For me... Life would sure be much simpler if I could just enjoy the religion of Harley Davidson, sportboats, and Moab 4 wheelin' on Sunday.

As far as the WoW goes... still a constant struggle for me. I chewed Copenhagen for 23 years, smoked cigars, drank beer, love red wine and Starbucks.

Marines cuss worse than Sailors.

To say, "what the church asks of me is difficult" is a major understatement.

I'll state out loud that it is still a work in progress.

I appreciate the positive statements people have made. I thought I was gonna get ripped for the sappy sentiment.

[Portland Ute]

My thinking on why they "Can't handle the truth": It because many members hold these individuals at such a high level (Almost Godlike). Since they are the prophet this means they speak in behalf of God. And if he was racist then that may in fact jeopardize the whole worthiness of a prophet. Therefore they can't be a racist. If he is racist then by some reason it may affect their testimony of the Gospel or the church as a whole. I don't see it that way.. All of us are human and only one was without sin. All of us can be guided by God at any moment and also by our own imperfections.. Just because a person is a GA or a prophet does not mean he has never lost his temper, or drank a Mwt. Dew, or got a speeding ticket, etc..

JS was a perfect example of a prophet who was scolded and punished at times by God (i.e. Lost manuscripts), and we use his example as how a person can be forgiven and still be called of God.. Why must everyone else that followed him have to be perfect?? They are not. They can't be...

Ok. I am done with my incoherent rant.. TIA

I think you are right. My SIL really struggled with the fact that President Monson loves Diet Dr. Pepper. It causes complete cognitive dissonance. And, this is a subject with no real import. Imagine someone like her actually thinking about Brigham Young and racism... :bomb:

[Portland Ute]

Good on ya Niku. Keep up the good work.

On the topic of leadership knowing...very slippery slope.

You know my history and an experience that happened to me earlier this year. Anyways...I am in the EQP in our ward and last week we reorganized all of our home teaching.

I have a great friend that recently moved back into the ward. When he was here last time he was fully active. Coming back this time, he is a non-believer and has turned in his TR. He comes to sac. meeting for his wife and kids. Real hard on their marraige. But he was open with the Bishop and he knows where my buddy stands. My buddy requested that I be his HT because he knows that I know, and his wife is comfortable with me.

When we were changing the routes the EQP says "Bro. Tick, I know that he requested you to be his HT, but because of his situation and your situation, the Bishop has told me that you aren't to be his HT."

I am bummed about it. I am bummed because my friend requested it and he was denied. I am also bummed because it appears my visit with the Bishop has been shared with the EQP.

I will be setting up a visit with the Bishop again shortly letting him know that unless I kill someone, I wont be in to chat with him anytime soon.

Your story bums me out, but does not surprise me.

[Donuthole]

I think you are right. My SIL really struggled with the fact that President Monson loves Diet Dr. Pepper. It causes complete cognitive dissonance. And, this is a subject with no real import. Imagine someone like her actually thinking about Brigham Young and racism... :bomb:

I heard he was a Diet Coke drinker. Where are you getting your DDP information? This is important stuff.

[Portland Ute]

I don't know why Blacks did not get priesthood before 1978 and many questions you don't know the answer.

Uh, they did get the priesthood before 1978. That's an important fact that so many people like to gloss over.

You do know the answer, grape, if you listen to your heart.

[Portland Ute]

I heard he was a Diet Coke drinker. Where are you getting your DDP information? This is important stuff.

I am satisfied with the source of my information. That's about all I care to disclose.

If I told you, you would trust that it is DDP, too.

[dabrockster]

I am satisfied with the source of my information. That's about all I care to disclose.

If I told you, you would trust that it is DDP, too.

I feel much better knowing it is DDP. Diet Coke sucks.. Unless it is Diet Coke Lime...