Repentance and confession - What would you do?

[CardiacCoug]

By your definition I'd argue that most Bishops are good. I am turning into a broken record here, but I don't think we give Bishops enough credit that their counsel in most instances are divinely inspired and for our benefit.

Now I agree with you on this.

My last 3 or 4 Bishops have been good, reasonable men -- I would guess a lot like Lebowski's dad when dealing with these situations.

But the fact that most Bishops would judge wisely and not choose to inflict additional vindictive punishment in this type of situation doesn't mean every person in this situation should abrogate his decisions (whether or not to inform his wife, for example) in this matter to his current Bishop, in my opinion.

[RobinFinderson]

Also, I tend to agree with DDD in this thread. Under the Terms of Agreement in an LDS temple marriage, there really doesn't seem to be any wiggle room. The spouse MUST be told, if the cheater has any integrity.

An exception would be if one or both members of the relationship made their feelings clear that they would not want to be told (which would seem like an unusual request from anyone who literally believes what the church teaches about eternal marriage).

Where I tend to side with SU is in recognizing that the Terms of Agreement, as authored by the church, are not very good. I believe that TOA should be negotiated by couples (not their church) and that the TOA should be reevaluated from time to time to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

But DDD is completely right, that under the church's TOA, one MUST tell the spouse.

[KillerDog]

He said that after the woman came to his office to chat about it.

I'm sorry, I thought the brother in this story went to the Bishop to chat. Did I misunderstand the facts? I admit I read the facts quickly.

One of the elements regarding repentance in the LDS Church that concerns me is the lack of grounding the confession has in the actions of the savior. I think we often take the confession to the extreme. I believe many members confess sins to a priesthood leader when they don't need to. I assume they do this because it is easier for them to confess to a person they can see rather than confess to the proper authority. I think many leaders take that confession thing and run with it, ordering confessions to others in a very foolish manner. I never noticed the savior requiring a confession by sinners prior to the granting of forgiveness.

[RobinFinderson]

No it doesn't.

That definition is a one way street.

Try again.

What is good communication?

[tooblue]

The Bishop is looking out for the interests of the church first, before the interests of the couple. Usually the church's interests and the couple's interests will not be mutually exclusive, but if they are, the Bishop has an obligation to represent the church's interests. Is this really controversial?

It's not controversial because you are wrong. The Bishops express responsibility is to look after the body of the saints which make up the church. He is explicitly answerable to God for every individuals well being.

[TripletDaddy]

Translation: No one should get to have an affair and not suffer pain and humiliation.

Not a good translation. in fact, completely off-point. "get" to have an affair? Now you see it as a privilege?

To your point, I think a more accurate statement is that it is unlikely that anyone that has an affair will avoid pain and humiliation to some degree.

[TripletDaddy]

Also, I tend to agree with DDD in this thread. Under the Terms of Agreement in an LDS temple marriage, there really doesn't seem to be any wiggle room. The spouse MUST be told, if the cheater has any integrity.

An exception would be if one or both members of the relationship made their feelings clear that they would not want to be told (which would seem like an unusual request from anyone who literally believes what the church teaches about eternal marriage).

Where I tend to side with SU is in recognizing that the Terms of Agreement, as authored by the church, are not very good. I believe that TOA should be negotiated by couples (not their church) and that the TOA should be reevaluated from time to time to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

But DDD is completely right, that under the church's TOA, one MUST tell the spouse.

Babes already went this route. My position stands regardless of whether you are LDS, atheist, or a Scientologist (gasp!). You should tell your wife if you want to have any integrity.

[KillerDog]

Also, I tend to agree with DDD in this thread. Under the Terms of Agreement in an LDS temple marriage, there really doesn't seem to be any wiggle room. The spouse MUST be told, if the cheater has any integrity.

An exception would be if one or both members of the relationship made their feelings clear that they would not want to be told (which would seem like an unusual request from anyone who literally believes what the church teaches about eternal marriage).

Where I tend to side with SU is in recognizing that the Terms of Agreement, as authored by the church, are not very good. I believe that TOA should be negotiated by couples (not their church) and that the TOA should be reevaluated from time to time to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

But DDD is completely right, that under the church's TOA, one MUST tell the spouse.

Where can you find a copy of the TOA for a temple marriage? They forgot to give my wife and I the copies we signed but I expect they haven't changed. There are some elements to that contract I would like specific performance on.

[tooblue]

Wouldn't it be awful to feel like you had to confess something private to your bishop, who was tooblue. I udnerstand he has been in the bishopric. I bet there are some bishops like him.

Wouldn't it be awful to be out of bounds and violate trusts even if it is merely a message board.

[SeattleUte]

Here's a hard part about telling the spouse that some of you taking a hard and fast approach are not considering. The spouse may want to see sackloth and ashes, weeping, true regret and tormented sorrow. Do people really ever feel that one dimensionally about a fantastic sexual experience? What if there was some resentment built up against the spuse beforehand? Unless you can act like Meryl Streep it may be a hard act to pull off. And how honest is that? I've heard of situations where the spouse keeps saying, "You don't seem really sorry." It really does tear a certain psyche that is fairly common to shreds.

[Surfah]

But the fact that most Bishops would judge wisely and not choose to inflict additional vindictive punishment in this type of situation doesn't mean every person in this situation should abrogate his decisions (whether or not to inform his wife, for example) in this matter to his current Bishop, in my opinion.

And you're entitled to that opinion. But that opinion is not in harmony with what the Church and Christ (so long as you believe the scriptures and revelation) have set forth.

[TripletDaddy]

What is good communication?

I don't have that answer. It seems that upon a minute's reflection, you now realize that you may not have it, either.

I am pretty confident that good communication does not include lying, cheating, and deceit. The term also implies a two-way exchange, at least as it pertains to marriage.

[TripletDaddy]

Where can you find a copy of the TOA for a temple marriage? They forgot to give my wife and I the copies we signed but I expect they haven't changed. There are some elements to that contract I would like specific performance on.

lol.

my wife felt cheated by my peppercorn of consideration that I brought to the table.

[TripletDaddy]

Here's a hard part about telling the spouse that some of you taking a hard and fast approach are not considering. The spouse may want to see sackloth and ashes, weeping, true regret and tormented sorrow. Do people really ever feel that one dimensionally about a fantastic sexual experience? What if there was some resentment built up against the spuse beforehand? Unless you can act like Meryl Streep it may be a hard act to pull off. And how honest is that? I've heard of situations where the spouse keeps saying, "You don't seem really sorry." It really does tear a certain psyche that is fairly common to shreds.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you are simply pointing out that some marriages are not going to work out because one partner harbors resentment, is incapable of forgiveness or because some trust is not repairable. This is likely one of the reasons the man cheated to begin with. Unfulfilled needs, poor communication, etc. Why "protect" a potentially unfulfilling relationship through lies and deceit?

[CardiacCoug]

And you're entitled to that opinion. But that opinion is not in harmony with what the Church and Christ (so long as you believe the scriptures and revelation) have set forth.

Yep. It's my opinion, not the Church's official position. Good observation.