Word I have never heard used in GD before yesterday.

[creekster]

knowest thou the condescension of God?

I used that word in the draft but changed it to avoid confusing the issues, as I dont see them as being the same.

[Mormon Red Death]

I'm in the Intercourse camp.

That is a signature quote.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I attended Sunday School for the first time in two years yesterday. I wish I was back in the primary now.

Here was a little nugget I heard for the first time:

"It's been prophesied in the scriptures that the time would come that Latter Day Saints would be the only people left that want to have have children." This was said right after our teacher told everyone that the United States was one of the last countries in the world that is adequately replacing its population with its birth rate -- not industrializes country, just any country period.

[Katy Lied]

Nothing to base it on, but IMHO Mary's virgin state was overrated, and probably sprang from the cult of Virgin Mary worship which placed great emphasis upon virginity in middle aged societies with primogeniture.

Sort of like how in today's LDS society, we place a premium on men being cleanly shaven, but in Brigham's day, sober men wore beards. So we depict Jesus as clean shaven now, but he's bearded in pictures 100 years ago.

I think reverence for Mary's purity would still be achieved if she were a virgin at conception. Not a virgin at birth. Then the birth of Jesus is a miracle because it was the issuing forth of the Savior of man, not some biological freakshow.

[hostile]

I'm in the Intercourse camp.

[hostile]

I think reverence for Mary's purity would still be achieved if she were a virgin at conception. Not a virgin at birth. Then the birth of Jesus is a miracle because it was the issuing forth of the Savior of man, not some biological freakshow.

This is how I understand it.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Is this anything like fat camp?

No, more like Band Camp. But with a different set of instruments.

[Flystripper]

I'm in the Intercourse camp.

who isn't really?

[ame="http://www.hulu.com/watch/202001/saturday-night-live-snl-digital-short-i-just-had-sex"]Hulu - Saturday Night Live: SNL Digital Short: I Just Had Sex@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.hulu.com/embed/qWUKU65mXRHzBZVrWi5vQg@@AMEPARAM@@qWUKU65mXRHzBZVr Wi5vQg[/ame]

[Jacob]

Nothing to base it on, but IMHO Mary's virgin state was overrated, and probably sprang from the cult of Virgin Mary worship which placed great emphasis upon virginity in middle aged societies with primogeniture.

Isn't it more likely that the virgin claims, if not accurate, were more ancient than springing forth in the middle ages? After all, most ancient middle eastern religions had gods' born miraculously or of virgin births. At least based upon what I've read.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Official doctrinal statement:


This is from:
THE FATHER AND THE SON
A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve (1926)

There are much more explicit statements of the claim, including in recent church manuals published by the church. But nothing with doctrinal weight. Though when you combine all the statements by prophets and church publications, you get about as close as you can to doctrine.

Yeah, I am aware of that, but doesn't it still leave open some wiggle room in terms of actual circumstances? Like I said, I was under the impression that the actual mechanics of the event were not settled.

But this is where I start to have a CardiacCoug moment and think to myself "How could anyone know that?"

[Katy Lied]

Isn't it more likely that the virgin claims, if not accurate, were more ancient than springing forth in the middle ages? After all, most ancient middle eastern religions had gods' born miraculously or of virgin births. At least based upon what I've read.

I wish Salon or SEIC were here to answer this.

I didnt think these gods sprang forth from virgins, only that they sprang forth in a non-normal biological way; ie from a crack in the earth, from a spring in the ground, from the head of his father. Not sure.

[Jacob]

Yeah, I am aware of that, but doesn't it still leave open some wiggle room in terms of actual circumstances? Like I said, I was under the impression that the actual mechanics of the event were not settled.

But this is where I start to have a CardiacCoug moment and think to myself "How could anyone know that?"

Certainly its not at the level that members are required to believe it. I doubt anyone would be disciplined for teaching that it didn't happen that way, until they were told not to. I'd guess that if we ever came out with an official determination on the matter, it'd be like the resolution the 12 reached after hearing debates by HB Roberts and JF Smith regarding the existence of pre-Adamites. IOW, neither position is a doctrine of the church and both people teaching the divergent theories should refrain from speaking about it in public and stop insulting each other.

Then again, just as JF Smith became apostle and president and BH Roberts did not, I'd expect someone holding the "literal" conception theory to advance faster in the leadership.

OTOH, every statement from a church publication or high up leader leans toward the "literal" conception and still calls it a virgin birth because the mate/father/sire was not a mortal man. And the statements are not 100 years old. Also, a very large portion of the lay members believe this because they have been taught it in church. You'd think such a broadly held belief that is so strange to other Christians would have been clarified if anyone at the top thought the teaching were incorrect.

Back to what I said...neither position is doctrine, but I'd guess that most leaders and lay members believe the "literal" conception is the correct teaching.

[Jacob]

I wish Salon or SEIC were here to answer this.

I didnt think these gods sprang forth from virgins, only that they sprang forth in a non-normal biological way; ie from a crack in the earth, from a spring in the ground, from the head of his father. Not sure.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births"]Miraculous births - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Abraham_renvoyant_Agar.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Abraham_renvoyant_Agar.jpg/200px-Abraham_renvoyant_Agar.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/b4/Abraham_renvoyant_Agar.jpg/200px-Abraham_renvoyant_Agar.jpg[/ame]

It seems that some were virgin births and some were other types of miraculous births. But, perhaps the virgin birth myths were not as common as I implied earlier, though not at all exclusive to Christianity.

[Devildog]

I'm in the Intercourse camp.

Is this anything like fat camp?

Talk about haulin' ass...

[TripletDaddy]

Yeah, I am aware of that, but doesn't it still leave open some wiggle room in terms of actual circumstances?