13 Articles of Healthy Chastity

[Mrs. Funk]

This one hits close to home. I have three daughters and the thought of how to educate them so that they do have healthy attitudes/perceptions about sex. To that end we are open about things and have had age appropriate discussions thus far.

I'm ambivalent about the whole bishop interview thing. I think it would be a good idea to have a parent there, but I wouldn't want that made policy because it could potentially backfire. What if a child has/is being sexually abused by a parent and that parent is required to be there? Not to say that the child would always offer that information in a private interview, but still, that type of a scenario would be a mess.

I think what we'll do is have frank discussions with our daughters about what should go on in a bishop's interview. I'll also discuss my expectations with the bishop. We plan on fostering an environment in which our girls would feel comfortable discussing sexual activity with us as parents. Anything that would need to be discussed with a bishop will (in theory) be known by us beforehand and so we'll be able to discuss how to take care of it with priesthood authority, if there is that need.

I also think it's important to follow their lessons in YW with them so that we can discuss and correct any misguided or patently false assertions being made.

It's not an easy thing to grow up in this world and being Mormon can sometimes complicated that with guilt and distorted views on sex. It would be nice to see the church approach sex in a refreshing way that wasn't straight out of the 1950s, but I'm not confident that it will. Instead, I'll do my part and hope it works out.

Thanks for posting that Mrs. Funk, I think it will be very helpful in our efforts.

I'm glad you found the link helpful. It's one of the more insightful things I've read, myself.

Personally, I never had any bad experiences with bishops in an interview as a youth. I did have a very bad experience with a singles ward bishop not specifically on the subject of chastity but regarding how he perceived the way I dressed. (I've told this elsewhere, but I'll reprise for purposes of this discussion). Interestingly, the interview was for my ecclesiastical endorsement for my app to BYU Law. After the interview, the bishop commented, "Now, Sister Funk, I've noticed [I've noticed! He basically admitted to checking me out] that you wear a lot of low-cut tops. This is something I like to talk to from time to time with sisters in the ward. [Which sounded to me like he got off on controlling the physical appearance of his congregants]. Now, at least you aren't a large-busted woman, so you don't have to worry about cleavage. [What, so now I'm a whore AND don't have a suitable rack?] Have you considered wearing a camisole or an undershirt?" and he drew a line across his collarbones. I mumbled that I would think about it. I still find it pretty appalling. I'd be horrified if something like that happened to one of my daughters. (And P.S. I don't and never did dress like a skank.)

As you may have gotten a sense from the FMH article, a lot of the chastity lessons in the YW manual are deeply flawed. I even a basic update to the materials could go miles in improving how we teach chastity in the church. I think we need people who can teach about sexuality and chastity without embarrassment and without sugar-coating and without being so explicit that YW/YM becomes a "how-to" session. The balance is hard to accomplish, I realize.

[DrumNFeather]

The only thing I was talking about, was my personal feeling on youth having closed-door discussions on chastity with a bishop.

I made no comment about preparing for, or discussing these conversations.

I do want to throw out one more point I briefly referenced before, though. How do we know our kids even want us in that room?

Are we all assuming that we're such perfect, wonderful parents that our kids will be completely open and willing to talk about intimate, embarrassing topics or mistakes during all the teenage phases? I think some of us have faded memories of our own adolescence if we really expect that. Even the best parents aren't going to always have that relationship with every child.

I'm certainly going to work as hard as I can to foster communication, discussion, and openness with my kids. But, I'm not going to be offended if they go to a trusted spiritual advisor for help. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were initially more comfortable with that, than having a confession in front of Mom/Dad.

Now you're talking about the child's agency, that could probably be an entire thread by itself.

[UtahDan]

I knew the response I'd get, I just wanted to flush out some of the details. I hope I am never called to be Bishop.

In 5th grade when all the boys in my grade got the talk we were gathered into a classroom and sat on the floor. After watching an awesome filmstrip, then the Miracle of Life, and some brief instruction we had a Q & A session. All my friends dared me to ask if sex hurt. So I did. The teacher, not particularly attractive and the mother of a girl in our grade said no, and that it actually feels great. A collective ewwwww! erupted from the class and we were dismissed.

Yeah to be clear, I am not saying "watch out for the Bishop, he's lying in wait for your child!" I think most Bishops do a fine job. But can easily think of three who gave incorrect, inappropriate and harmful counsel to me or people in my family. Because of these experiences I know that this danger is out there, and I just plan to take what I view to be the very reasonable and conservative step of saying to my child and my Bishop "this is so important that I and/or my wife need to be a part of it."

It is not a secret that I am critical of the church at times. That is not where this is coming from. This is coming from defensiveness of my children and some experience. It is practically oriented, at least my mind it is.

[UtahDan]

The only thing I was talking about, was my personal feeling on youth having closed-door discussions on chastity with a bishop.

I made no comment about preparing for, or discussing these conversations.

I do want to throw out one more point I briefly referenced before, though. How do we know our kids even want us in that room?

Are we all assuming that we're such perfect, wonderful parents that our kids will be completely open and willing to talk about intimate, embarrassing topics or mistakes during all the teenage phases? I think some of us have faded memories of our own adolescence if we really expect that. Even the best parents aren't going to always have that relationship with every child.

I'm certainly going to work as hard as I can to foster communication, discussion, and openness with my kids. But, I'm not going to be offended if they go to a trusted spiritual advisor for help. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were initially more comfortable with that, than having a confession in front of Mom/Dad.

Thanks for this response. I am enjoying this exchange. First, I would say that my kids and I may disagree on a lot of things. Just one silly example is whether it is important for them to eat their broccoli. They may disagree, and I may even be wrong, but as their parent it is my call. I can't make decisions about how I am going to try to protect them based on my recognition that I might be wrong or might not be the good parent I think I am. I have to assume that my own thoughts and feelings about what is best for the are right and then act on them. I just don't know how else to approach it.

Second, I think it is probably worth saying that a 12 year old and a 17 year old are not the same thing. I can imagine wanting to be in there with a 12 year old child, but by the time they are older being confident that no matter what happens they now have the experience and wherewithall to deal with it. Also by an older age the need to disclose something that they may not want to tell me is much more real. Where that line gets drawn would surely depend on the child. But I cannot imagine wanting to walk into an interview with a 17 year old.

[shoganai]

I'm glad you found the link helpful. It's one of the more insightful things I've read, myself.

Personally, I never had any bad experiences with bishops in an interview as a youth. I did have a very bad experience with a singles ward bishop not specifically on the subject of chastity but regarding how he perceived the way I dressed. (I've told this elsewhere, but I'll reprise for purposes of this discussion). Interestingly, the interview was for my ecclesiastical endorsement for my app to BYU Law. After the interview, the bishop commented, "Now, Sister Funk, I've noticed [I've noticed! He basically admitted to checking me out] that you wear a lot of low-cut tops. This is something I like to talk to from time to time with sisters in the ward. [Which sounded to me like he got off on controlling the physical appearance of his congregants]. Now, at least you aren't a large-busted woman, so you don't have to worry about cleavage. [What, so now I'm a whore AND don't have a suitable rack?] Have you considered wearing a camisole or an undershirt?" and he drew a line across his collarbones. I mumbled that I would think about it. I still find it pretty appalling. I'd be horrified if something like that happened to one of my daughters. (And P.S. I don't and never did dress like a skank.)

As you may have gotten a sense from the FMH article, a lot of the chastity lessons in the YW manual are deeply flawed. I even a basic update to the materials could go miles in improving how we teach chastity in the church. I think we need people who can teach about sexuality and chastity without embarrassment and without sugar-coating and without being so explicit that YW/YM becomes a "how-to" session. The balance is hard to accomplish, I realize.

While I agree that, based on your description, the bishop crossed a line here, I will stick up for him a little bit and say that you don't have to be actively checking someone out to notice certain things about their appearance.

[Mrs. Funk]

While I agree that, based on your description, the bishop crossed a line here, I will stick up for him a little bit and say that you don't have to be actively checking a someone out to notice certain things about their appearance.

While I agree you don't have to be actively checking out to see stuff, it's difficult to convey tone the tone of this statement on an internet message board. The clear implication seemed not only had he seen, but he was looking.

[shoganai]

Thanks for this response. I am enjoying this exchange. First, I would say that my kids and I may disagree on a lot of things. Just one silly example is whether it is important for them to eat their broccoli. They may disagree, and I may even be wrong, but as their parent it is my call. I can't make decisions about how I am going to try to protect them based on my recognition that I might be wrong or might not be the good parent I think I am. I have to assume that my own thoughts and feelings about what is best for the are right and then act on them. I just don't know how else to approach it.

Second, I think it is probably worth saying that a 12 year old and a 17 year old are not the same thing. I can imagine wanting to be in there with a 12 year old child, but by the time they are older being confident that no matter what happens they now have the experience and wherewithall to deal with it. Also by an older age the need to disclose something that they may not want to tell me is much more real. Where that line gets drawn would surely depend on the child. But I cannot imagine wanting to walk into an interview with a 17 year old.

I agree with this generally. I honestly don't even remember what bishop's interviews were like when I was 12 or 13. I'm sure they definitely weren't the same as when I got older or was in a singles ward.

I think you have a good point that it's probably a good idea to have some prepared, structured conversation to prepare a younger child for chastity questions, so they know what to expect and will hopefully be able to better recognize if something has crossed the line.

[shoganai]

While I agree you don't have to be actively checking out to see stuff, it's difficult to convey tone the tone of this statement on an internet message board. The clear implication seemed not only had he seen, but he was looking.

I take it you weren't flattered by the attention

[Mrs. Funk]

I take it you weren't flattered by the attention

Ahem. No.

[clackamascoug]

Thanks for this response. I am enjoying this exchange. First, I would say that my kids and I may disagree on a lot of things. Just one silly example is whether it is important for them to eat their broccoli. They may disagree, and I may even be wrong, but as their parent it is my call.

I couldn't disagree more on this one. Parents forcing their kids to eat certain foods is just wrong. Perhaps abusive. I love broccoli, and so do millions of others. Millions of others hate broccoli. It's a personal preference, and it has no consequence whatsoever.

I was mildly abused by my domineering mother growing up. Beatings with electric cords etc. She used to play this weird mind game with me over peaches. Can't leave the table till you eat your peaches. It was horrible, having to gag down those peaches, with tears streaming. And the gagging over each slice. It lasted until I was 12, and 6 foot tall, but she had a good run of terror over me for a lot of years. Please don't make kids eat food just because you can. Give them some dignity of making their own choices of what they put in their mouths. There's more important things than broccoli, like free will and choice.

[Babs]

I don't know if it really is the church's place to be teaching my future YW and YM about chastity and morals.

Are you trolling? If it's not the church's job to impart morals, then what exactly is the church's job?

[Mrs. Funk]

So since Bishop's shouldn't discuss sex with kids, should our often equally untrained/unqualified school teacher's be discussing sex in school?

I'm more worried about what the particular state's curriculum teaches rather than the specific teacher, although that is a concern as well. I recently found out from a member of the Utah Internet Crimes Against Children (she does presentations and such) that Utah sex ed curriculum is abstinence only. Teaching anything about contraception is verboten. (Incidentally, this presenter, if she goes to give a presentation at school, may not say the word "sex." Eek!) I find this very abstinence-only sex education in schools a little troubling. I think it's great to teach abstinence, but many kids are going to have sex regardless. I'm not sure we can count on parents to educate their children about contraceptives, though I can only imagine how terribly tricky thing that would prove. ("Don't have sex, but if you do . . .")

A commenter on the FMH article linked to this slate.com article comparing how we present sex to American teenagers as compared to a number of European countries. It's presented as a slideshow, and compares 15 or so advertisements/posters.

[UtahDan]

I couldn't disagree more on this one. Parents forcing their kids to eat certain foods is just wrong. Perhaps abusive. I love broccoli, and so do millions of others. Millions of others hate broccoli. It's a personal preference, and it has no consequence whatsoever.

I was mildly abused by my domineering mother growing up. Beatings with electric cords etc. She used to play this weird mind game with me over peaches. Can't leave the table till you eat your peaches. It was horrible, having to gag down those peaches, with tears streaming. And the gagging over each slice. It lasted until I was 12, and 6 foot tall, but she had a good run of terror over me for a lot of years. Please don't make kids eat food just because you can. Give them some dignity of making their own choices of what they put in their mouths. There's more important things than broccoli, like free will and choice.

I appreciate you sharing that. There must be a middle ground between not forcing kids to do everything and letting them make all the decisions though, right? If Broccoli is a bad example then how about whether they go to church, to school, brush their teeth, go to bed when you tell them, etc?

Good point with the food though. Peaches to this day make me gag for some reason. How do you approach food with your kids? I feel like mine need to try it, but if it really isn't something they like (and not just that they want their Halloween candy instead) I don't think I would force them. There are so many things we do as parents we do that our parents did without thinking much about them, I hadn't even really even thought about the experience you are describing. Thanks again.

[UtahDan]

Are you trolling? If it's not the church's job to impart morals, then what exactly is the church's job?

I wonder whether it is uniquely LDS that when a lot of us say "morals" we are referring to sexual purity.

[Babs]

I wonder whether it is uniquely LDS that when a lot of us say "morals" we are referring to sexual purity.

I'm just going to back out now. Fools rush in and all.